chamsa

Tse,
Ideological states proved its inadequacy, and vulnerability to extremism as well as poor human rights records. And I think that it is one of the major drawbacks of the muslim countries. I am a muslim and wonder why on earth you would like to repeat our mistakes?
 

we are not an ideological state .. we are a nation state
 

Nizo, compromise their margin of maneuverability such as? I see it opposite. I think they will gain in that area immensely since what is at the moment restricting it is distrust towards them as to their loyalty.

Accord, I think as religion is kept out of the government as much as possible there shouldn't be a problem. I know it's bit of a mess at the moment with both the Sharia family courts and the Rabbinical ones -plus the state court, but all in all I think this kind of diversity actually is also a sign of better democracy (everybody is better represented) than in other countries, either 'west' or 'east' having in place only one court-system. Or isn't this what you meant?

Nobody, it is not an ideological state, but. . . there are ideological things that will need to be changed in order for ALL people here to feel "Israeli" even if it is a "Jewish State". The anthem for example...

======================

Perhaps I am prejudiced because I definitely see that for the Arab-Israelis I know and those I meet, every-day life- studies- work- money- home, seem much more on their mind than questions about what identity the country they live in has....
 

it's pointless to change the hymn ... it's actually dishonest ... we are not going to change immigration policies or stop seeking to ensure jewish majority in this country.. the hymn reflects what this country is .. why to change it ???

never mind that it's such a symbol that probably it can't be changed ...the jews won't let you do it...

as to the arabs they won't be satisfied with such cosmetic changes ... for them it all comes squarely to immigration policies and the right of return ... they want control and for this they need to get numbers ...
 

As long as deep in the heart,
The soul of a Jew yearns,
And forward to the East
To Zion, an eye looks
Our hope will not be lost,
The hope of two thousand years,
To be a free nation in our land,
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

Tell me how a footballplayer not being jewish but yes being israeli can sing this when he goes to represent Israel against another country before the game?

Only satisfied with ROR or without ROR doesn't interest me, life is not perfect but, as soon as someone starts to feel home in a country the animosity towards it becomes way less. Leave alone the many times i have seen arab-israelis interviewed and wanting to say something positive about israel but being afraid (to be seen as traitors by other arab-israelis for whom politics are more important than every day life).

Of course mass-events where leaders get to talk all these hostile things towards Israel and the audience get swept away, gets more attention in the media.
 

what I actually try to say is it doesn't add up

it seems like two different worlds

the people (arab israelis) that i know and the people they show on tv in those news segments

and are discussed in political debats etc.
 

I think they will gain in that area immensely since what is at the moment restricting it is distrust towards them as to their loyalty.

I don't disagree with you that they would win loyalty points, but as long as Israel is at odds with her Arab neighbors they will always represent a 5th column at some level. Even if not an imminent danger they would represent a dormant one. As for them rejecting the Jewish state label, they view it as a passive form of resistance. It's talk, hot air, now if they truly mobilize politically and ask for secession things would be different. But they're smarter than putting themself in a position where they may be "ejected" by the transfer crowd.. besides, if given the choice between Israel and a PA state, they'll pick the former in a heartbeat. At the end of the day it is their livelyhoods that matter, the rest is letting off some relatively harmless steam. I'm convinced that the overwhelming majority of Israelis enjoyed their sufganiyot this hannukah without giving a fart to what Israeli Arabs think about the Jewishness of the state.
 

Nobody,
Arab countries are nation states. Are they doing any better??

Tse,
Regardless how the living conditions for everyone are, why should it be either a jew state or an arab state??
Why not be just a state for those who are living in it??
I know politicians won't agree, but isn't it better to make it not nation nor religion specific state for all of you.
 

Accord said...

Nobody,
Arab countries are nation states. Are they doing any better??

accord ... your point is not clear ... you are talking as if for the first time in its history israel should decide if it wants to be a nation state ...

israel has always been a nation state ... and we are not doing that bad to start with .. israel is a success story ... considering the circumstances an incredible success story and it's a nation state ...

what all of this has to do with arabs ??? and arabs are not necessarily nation states ... many of their countries are not homogeneous enough for even pretending to be one ... they are multi-ethnic and multi-religious societies ...

as to your question why israel should be a jewish or arab state ... did you follow iraq, darfur or lebanon lately?? why do you think anybody would like to live in one of them ??

the arabs are notorious for their inability to co-exist not only with their minorities but with each other too ... do you know that half of this country are refugees from the arab world ??? or that we are forced to build another fence at the border with egypt because of thousands of muslims from sudan who are fleeing atrocities by their arab neighbors ... how do you exactly envision persuading israelis that co-existing with arabs is what they have been missing all this time ???

though all these practical considerations are of secondary importance of course ... the main reason is that most israelis are nationalists and want to live in their own state ... they don't want to share it ... you may like it or not but this is how most israelis are ...

maybe if the arab countries around us suddenly turn into prospering multi cultural utopias some israelis would rethink their approach .. but in truth i don't think that's the trend ... quite the opposite seems to be happening
 

Have a look at http://www.laaf.info/
the site of the Liberation Army Against Freedom and see for yourself where misunderstanding leads to.
 

Aywa, Nizo, I agree. It is again a matter of distrust, and they are between the hammer and the nail. Either trusted by the jewish-Israeli's by turning their loyalty to them but seen as traitors by their Palestinian brothers for not supporting their cause anymore, or the other way around. Difficult position indeed. I suppose that's why none, and I mean absolutely none, of the arab-Israelis I know ever gets into political discussions or anything. (and I am too shy to ask).

Accord, it couldn't be labeled just a state because the jews need a 'home'. Too many centuries of persecution and being a minority everywhere who could not defend themselves has led to that. That doesn't mean other peoples can not (or rather should not) live in it in total equality.

Nobody, maybe 'most israelis.... don't want to share it' (based upon what do you get this conclusion anyway?) - suppose(!) this is true: that wouldn't make any difference now, would it? The REALITY is that there ARE other people here that do live here and unless you 'deport' them (which will never happen) they do HAVE to share it.
 

The REALITY is that there ARE other people here that do live here and unless you 'deport' them (which will never happen) they do HAVE to share it.

well .. it depends on what you define by sharing ... say, the majority of israelis are not ready to share with the arabs state symbols such as the hymn ...

and frankly i think we are in a much more extreme situation than this ...there is now a rampant hostility towards israeli arabs among mainstream israelis as a result of the second intifada, terror and unending provocations by bishara, tibi and other arab MKs .. dunno what these people had in mind when they set out to stage their provocations but they have certainly achieved their aim ...

israeli arabs have also compromised their position by the irrationality of their demands and the lack of common sense ... israel has been basically trying to create a palestinian state in the west bank/gaza... if that's not enough here came lieberman who offered territorial swaps that were supposed to include israeli arab populated areas in the triangle, galilee and even negev ...

israeli arabs on the one hand refuse to join the PA ... on the other hand complain about discrimination and lack of representation ... but they are not wanted here .. it's very clear ... israelis dont want to 'co-exist' with them ... but we are not forcing ourselves on israeli arabs ...

basically it's as if we are saying to them: you dont like our hymn, you feel like you are oppressed and exploited, then you are free to join the PA ... we are not holding them by force ... this is no transfer .. this is in fact something that no arab state has ever offered to any minority with a possible exception of sudan (though it remains to be seen if bashir keeps his word) ... anyway the last time the kurds tried to secede from iraq and iran, one gassed them with mustard gas, the other declared on them jihad ...

there is a contradiction in israeli arab demands because if we are an apartheid state, if they feel excluded and not welcomed (which they certainly are) then they should ask us to move the fence to separate their areas from israel and make them part of the PA and this has been repeatedly offered to them ... if they want to stay because they like our welfare system and because they are somewhat skeptical about their own ability to create and maintain a state of their own then they should drop their demands ... they simply can't get it both ways ...
 

I'll respond to you later when I have some more time, Nobody, but this:


there is now a rampant hostility towards israeli arabs among mainstream israelis

W-H-E-R-E???

Come with me to the beach on Saturday afternoons and see how Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis talk, walk, dance and work together with no hate, or everybody is acting bloody good.

Where are you living, Nobody? Cause I honestly don't see this around me AT ALL.

(In the Galilea?)
 

well .. nobody is slitting throats to anybody .. but say people don't want to have arabs as neighbors, to rent places to them ...one of my friends wanted to rent a place and he asked me to make calls for him to make a first appointment .. he said that if on the phone they hear his accent, many say that it's rented out or suddenly ask for a higher price .. in tel aviv it's less extreme
 

it does depend on the place ... i think haifa is the most harmonious .. tel aviv is the second ... in jerusalem it's much worse ... i think in the south they have difficult relationships with the bedouins .. partly because the beduins are stealing a lot ...
 

much of course depends on the arabs themselves .. if on the next elections the arab public sends tibi and his friends packing, then things may change ... but if it continues this way i would expect it getting worse ... this time they really struck a raw nerve to many people
 

you dont like our hymn, you feel like you are oppressed and exploited, then you are free to join the PA

very enlightened. people living here in their own land but they have to move?

Nobody I work with arab-israeli lawyers together, I have an arab-israeli dentist, I ride the sherut every saturday with arab-israeli drivers, my vegetable shop is arab-israeli - and I can go on forever with examples, they do not need to move, or want to move and are perfectly happy living here, but STILL CANNOT SING "JEWISH BLOOD RUNS THROUGH MY VEINS" (or words to that extent in the anthem) because of the simple fact that that is not true. Why should they be deprived of an anthem?
 

well .. tsedek .. i was not talking about moving anybody ... and you know this
 

and nobody is going to change the hymn .. and i bet you understand this too ...
 

No.
 

Tsedek -

"there is now a rampant hostility towards israeli arabs among mainstream israelis

W-H-E-R-E???"

Everywhere I look. A large number of my Euro-wannabe intellectual friends used to be rabidly leftist... they still claim to be leftist. But they openly state that they don't want to share anything with Arabs, don't believe that Arabs want peace, are certain that Arabs in Israel are a traitorous fifth column...

All the high-tech people I know seem to agree with the notion.

Same goes for your average taxi driver.

Same goes for, well, almost everyone I know. And most of them were leftists until a few years ago.

It's the robberies. And the rapes. And the break-ins. And the random assaults. And the carjackings. And the thefts. And the Arab leaders in Israel. And the Muslim leaders in Israel. And the Palestinian terror. And the open, widespread support Arabs in Israel offered to Hizballah. And the constant lies. And the utter insanity of the demands. And the polls which show that about one third of Arabs in Israel are Holocaust deniers - and that the more educated Arabs are more likely to be Holocaust deniers. And everything else.

These notions became commonplace enough to be the default among people who barely consider themselves Jews - and some are Euro-wannabes to the point of denying their Jewishness. Hell, non-Jewish Israelis have the same default opinion. People who are actively Zionist tend have even more negative notions about Israeli Arabs.

הגיעו מים עד נפש...

And the government that'll even consider changing the hymn will be brought down. We are a Jewish state first and firmost.
 

All the high-tech people I know seem to agree with the notion.

i also noticed this ... i remember days when the hi-tech was overwhelmingly leftist, co-existence and the new middle east ... there could be no such thing as a hi-tech man and lieberman supporter in one person ... let alone to overhear conversations between people complaining to each other that one of their neighbors has sold his apartment to an arab family ... the change that the hi-tech has gone through in this regard is astonishing ...

though if tibi and his command continue with their shit it may easily get worse ...
 

Well, I don't notice anything of all that in daily life. Perhaps I'm living on a different island?
 

as everything in nature relationships between people and communities have their ups and downs ... since the collapse of the oslo there has been a dramatic hardening of the attitudes among israelis towards israeli arabs .. if you did't notice these fluctuations then yes, you arey out of touch ...

and if we are talking about the humn it was possible at some stage during the oslo .. the arabs had only to ask nicely about it, something like: well.. we know you are a jewish state but we still think you could make your hymn somewhat more inclusive ... now after tibi and others have proclaimed their rejection of israel as a jewish state, it's all over ...
 

I'll tell the drivers of the 66-line sheruts on saturday when I see them and laugh and talk with them as the rest of the passengers in the sherut are doing.

I'll tell them "Ali, you know Tibi has asked not to recognize the Jewish State, so unfortunately, although we are having very much fun during our ride, I have to boycott you'

How do you think he will react?
 

dunno .. most people in this country don't let their political views to influence their interaction with other people at the personal level ... at least they try to ... lest that by chance you end in a situation like this one
 

MK: Israel must change attitude toward Arab population

look at comment 10. . .


I am afraid you are right, Nobody. However, I believe in individuality. I believe in good overwinning bad. Be careful? Sure. Hate? NO WAY. If more and more people adhere to the non-hate "strategy" - it grows and will affect others, having contrary opinions.
 

Tsedek said...

MK: Israel must change attitude toward Arab population

look at comment 10. . .


I am afraid you are right, Nobody.

i know this tsedek .. because i talk to people a lot ... and politics too ... there were three major events that led to a very dramatic deterioration of the view israelis have of israeli arabs and palestinians...it all happened within one year ..

one was the war and the solidarity with hezbollah that many israeli arabs often even did not bother to hide ... when people saw that father of the two boys killed by katyushas saying how he is ready to martyr his sons for hassan nasrallah and the palestinian cause it shocked people ...

second, the war between hamas and fatah in gaza .. most israelis dont understand what's the matter between the two .. they usually assume that it's like likud and avoda here .. so they were amazed to see the palestinians throwing each other down from towers or maiming each other by shooting out knee caps to each other supporters and similar shit ... whatever israeli arabs can do now it won't amaze israelis because many israelis now think that palestinians know no limits to violence ...

finally, tibi and his friends ... and peki'in ... and the rapes .. it's too much ...

israeli arabs should keep a low profile now and let israelis to recover from this shit ... but instead their leaders opened their mouth in such a way .. i dont remember anything like this ...
 

luckily you won't feel much here because jaffa is a special place ... but say in the north and jerusalem people should clearly feel the effect .. in fact a christian arab that works with me told me that there is some shit going on between them and the muslims in nazareth and other places too ...
 

I know it is hard to understand, but they really really do hate you and they really really will hate you to the end of time.

That the way it is. They want to kill you, your children, your grandchildren, your neighbors etc and nothing you can do can change that.
 

To have a peek once and a while at Yudit Ilany's blog Occupied will open the eyes of some of your tunnel- visioned readers.
 

Anthem business:

India:

NB: Some parts aren't part of the country of India anymore and were in reference to the situation before the partition.

O! Dispenser of India's destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people[5]
Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, the Maratha country,
in the Dravida country, Utkala (Orissa) and Bengal;
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
it mingles in the rhapsodies of the pure waters of Jamuna and the Ganges.
They chant only thy name.
They seek only thy auspicious blessings.
They sing only the glory of thy victory.
The salvation of all people waits in thy hands,
O dispenser of India's destiny!
Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory to thee.

Serbia:

God of Justice; Thou who saved us
When in deepest bondage cast,
Hear our voices, we entreat Thee,
Be our leader as in the past.

With Thy mighty hand guide, defend
Of the Serbian future pace,
God of justice, save and nourish
Serbian lands and SERBIAN RACE!

Bind in closest links our kindred
Teach the love that will not fail,
May the loathed fiend of discord
Never in our ranks prevail.

Let the golden fruits of union
Flourish with the freedom grace;
God of justice, guide and prosper
Serbian lands and Serbian race!1

Lord! Avert from us Thy vengeance,
Thunder of Thy dreaded ire;
Bless each Serbian town and hamlet,
Mountain, meadow, heart and spire.

When our host goes forth to battle
Death or victory to embrace-
God of armies! be our leader
Strengthen then the Serbian race!

On our sepulchre of ages
Breaks the resurrection morn,
From the slough of direst slavery
Serbia anew is born.

T' Serbian home-land Thou shalt nourish,
Five cent'ries a battle place,
God of Justice! Guide and prosper,
Thus entreats the Serbian race!


Czech Republic:

Where is my home? Where is my home?
Waters murmurs across the meads
Pinewoods rustle upon the cliff-rocks,
Bloom of spring shines in the orchard,
Paradise on Earth to see!
And that is the beautiful land,
The Czech land, my home!
The Czech land, my home!

Where is my home? Where is my home?
If, in the heavenly land, you have met
Tender souls in agile frames,
Of clear mind, vigorous and prospering,
And with a strength that frustrates all defiance,
That is the glorious RACE OF CZECHS,
Among the Czechs (is) my home!
Among the Czechs, my home!

UK "God Save the Queen" certainly appeals to those who are atheists or don't practice a monotheistic faith. Same goes for pledging allegiance to the flag in the US.

They aren't going to be changed at present.

Generally, this is utter BS on the part of the Israeli Arabs. Many anthems contain religious and/or ethnic references yet people still sing them as they are citizens, even if the country's composition has changed over the years.

Let's look at some shining examples from some Arab countries:

UAE:
Live my country, the unity of our Emirates lives
You have lived for a nation
Whose religion is Islam and guide is the Qur'an
I made you stronger in God's name oh homeland
My country, My country, My country, My country
God has protected you from the evils of the time
We have sworn to build and work
Work sincerely, work sincerely
As long as we live, we'll be sincere sincere
The safety has lasted and the flag has lived oh our Emirates
The symbol of Arabism
We all sacrifice for you, we supply you with our blood
We sacrifice for you with our souls oh homeland

Jordan:

Long live the King!

Long live the King!
His position is sublime,
His banners waving in glory supreme.

We achieved our goal,
On the day you gave us the mark,
A revolution gives us our motivation!
Flying over the shoulders of the highest comets.

Oh! You king of Arabs,
From the best prophet you have..
The honour of dynasty,
Talked about in the depths of books!

All the youthful men,
Are your armed armies
His determination never dies out!
(translated literally):Getting from your meaning a symbol of well-being!
(meaning):Getting from you the manners you have

Oh! You king of Arabs,
From the best prophet you have..
The honour of dynasty,
Talked about in the depths of books!

May you stay the light and the guide,
A master in being away of all sins and wrong-doing,
Living your life happily and well-respected!
Under your flying flag rests the glory of all Arabs.

Oh! You king of Arabs,
From the best prophet you have..
The pleasure of dynasty,
Talked about in the depths of books!
 

Hahahaha Anoniem in the Dutch anthem there is even the text


"ben ik, van Duitsen bloed, :D

(I am of German blood)
you can imagine? :D


I never said that only the Israeli anthem was wrong. I only care about the Israeli anthem and text and people living here, because I live here ;)
 

Deze reactie is verwijderd door de auteur.
 

No, Nobody I am more of "wanna change the world, start with yourself"


:D
 

i always found it annoying that the anthem says "East" ahh.. excuse me.. not everyone looked that way.. i think the anthem needs rewording but not necessarily just for inter-faith issues - i dont even think it represents all of the jewish people here..

yemenite power!!
 

Tse, I don't see why Israel should be the most liberalist, multi-cultural and anational country on the planet. Not only would it be taken as deconstructing our national identity by people here in Israel, it would spread like wildfire through the Arabic states' news outlets as proof that even Israeli Jews don't believe in their right to a state. And in case you didn't notice, in our region appearances such as this start wars. I'm tired of these Meretz-style games, Tse.

And Lirun, the majority of Jews (Sephardic, Ashkenazi) looked East, with slight variations when we got better maps to show us the exact position of Jerusalem. I also think that Yehuda HaLevi's poem had a great deal to do with that particular line in the anthem.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/yehudalevi.htm

Note that the second poem on that page did mention that Jews were everywhere, but it was the (much better) first poem that is more famous.
 

Speaking of all-inclusive anthems, should we also remove any mention of a monotheist deity from the world's anthems, so that atheists, agnostics, and pagans can feel more comfortable with, say, the British and Italian anthems? Or should we just do away with anthems altogether and go for a more "enlightened" path than that of nation-states? *sigh*

I'll stick with being proud of my ancient religio-national identity and its central role in the country founded for the sole reason of having a place for having people of said identity staying alive and feeling at home.

And speaking of homes... the thing with a home that belongs to everyone is that it belongs to no one as well. Such homes are either ruined beyond repair, or taken by the strongest person around who wants a home.
 

The Dutch anthem het Wilhelmus is the original anthem of the ancestors of our royal family the Oranjes.
They do have their roots in Hessen where in a place called Nassau the castle Dillenburg was located.

Beetje dom Tse.

Thank God we Frisians are related to the Vikings.
 

i also dont see any reason why people should entertain themselves with such notions since the world, or at least the region, is plainly moving in the opposite direction .. in the arab world both nationalism and islamism are on the rise ... separatism is lurking everywhere from iraqi kurdistan to darfur ... israel is getting more religious and religious people tend to be more right wing and more nationalist ... israeli arabs are also getting more religious and more nationalist ...

multi culturalism and diversity is not the name of the game now .. the name of the game is to redraw borders and create separation before we all find ourselves in deep shit
 

RK -

I haven't thought of the connection between libi ba-mizrakh and Hatikva. Thanks, man :)

NB -

We could just rephrase your last comment as "the name of the game now is sinking deeper into the bottomless shit".
 

We could just rephrase your last comment as "the name of the game now is sinking deeper into the bottomless shit".

it reminds me of the second half of the 19th century when some people got so impressed with the economic and technological progess achieved by then that they decided that the end of history is close and humanity is entering an eternal golden age ... this sentiment persisted in some people right into the beginning of the 20-th century .. then of course the world was hit by the first world war ... then by the second .. europe was destroyed twice, its jews annihilated .. next the communists have grabbed almost 1/4 of the world and the nuclear arms race followed ...

these days something similar is happening ... some people have plainly convinced themselves that the time to realize the humanity's most wild utopias has arrived ... of course on the horizon the era of nuclear and chemical terror is looming and fundamentalism is sweeping the world ... i think it's just impossible not to notice how the beginning of this century is becoming wierdly remiscent of the beginning of the last one ...
 

RK, I totally disagree with you. Spread like a wildfire in the Arab news outlets that proof that even Israeli Jews don't believe in their right to a state, but the Arab peoples could see for themselves that we can have a Jewish national state without forcing others to sing that they have a Jewish soul. Btw: what does it matter actually what others say about it? I mainly concentrate on "us" - and whether you like it or not there is a 20% non-jewish population here that needs to feel this country belongs to them as well as to the Jews, no matter what the national character of that country is.

I'll stick with being proud of my ancient religio-national identity and its central role in the country founded for the sole reason of having a place for having people of said identity staying alive and feeling at home.

It wouldn't be so difficult to write up a text that could both express the identity of the country and in the same instance express the right of people not sharing that identity to be their home. To ask someone to sing that they have a Jewish soul while they haven't is downright stupid.
 

Nobody, i also dont see any reason why people should entertain themselves with such notions since the world, or at least the region, is plainly moving in the opposite direction

that's reason for Israel to follow suit?

"A light upon nations" . . .

If not so, it has no right to exist. Then everybody claiming that the Jews might as well have sat up camp in Uganda are right. Because why was this land chosen then?
 

tsedek ... your arguments got mixed up ... RK is an orthodox jew .. i am an absolutely secular person
 

The land never was chosen, it is the Promised Land.

(Ik wordt wel een beetje moe van deze Babylonische verwarring.)
 

No, Tse, it being "just about us" is a simplistic and false argument. The vast majority of middle-easterners don't give a damn about Arabs in Israel, and the way we are *percieved* is everything.

As for being "a light unto the nations", I don't remember destroying ourselves as a national group in Jesus-like sacrifice being part of it. We're not here to die for the world's sins, Tse, and nor do I ascribe to your definition of what being a "light" is. If atheists in England can sing about things that they view as utterly false (and then you have the anti-monarchists as well), then people here can sing the anthem as well, even if that line doesn't include their beliefs.

Not that I ask them to, mind you. Just living here as decent people is enough for me. But you seem to ascribe to the univesalist view, Tse, a view which doesn't have any room for it for a country that is a national home for the Jewish people. The anthem is just step one, and you know it. Because we would then focus on other "privilages" the majority holds, like automatic citizenship to the very Jews that this country was rebuilt to house and protect. Why not Uganda, Tse? Simple, we had nothing to do with Uganda, it was never part of us. This place *is*, but for some reason you think that if we're here, we must be some kind of ultra-liberalist heaven that will destroy itself in its deluded Utopian quest...

You want to destroy barriers, Tse? Make everyone happy? I don't share your path. Coexistance is about mutual acceptance, not about erasing every identifying marker people have and trying to shove them into a "mankind" identity. Every national group has the right to have a nation of its own, in my view, where it can be the majority and craft the country in its image. Where they can feel at home, Tse.
 

The vast majority of middle-easterners don't give a damn about Arabs in Israel,

I don't remember destroying ourselves as a national group in Jesus-like sacrifice being part of it.


=============


c'mon RK, you surely can see the difference between acting properly and ethically and proceding a national suicide?

Nobody has to sacrifice anything. And, if the vast majority don't give a damn about them that should decide our approach to them?

Why not Uganda, Tse? Simple, we had nothing to do with Uganda, it was never part of us

And why not, if not for the cultural believes that has its roots in religion - religion which says to be a light upon nations. An example of how it is good to be. . . If not this religion than indeed jews could have chosen anywhere on earth to make their homeland. without religion there is no "to jerusalem next year' and not temple we here that proves we want to and need to and are entitled to be in THIS PARTICULAR land.


So, yes, again: if taking only half of the commandments of the holy scriptures while denying the rest - there is no right to be in this particular country.


Coexistance is about mutual acceptance, not about erasing every identifying marker people have and trying to shove them into a "mankind" identity. Every national group has the right to have a nation of its own, in my view, where it can be the majority and craft the country in its image. Where they can feel at home, Tse.
Does 'at home' particularly mean fighting others who also feel this is their home, RK? Or does home mean = security, calmth, feeling accepted among everyone living in this home? Feeling comfortable and at ease?
Because you know, you can try to pretend no other people are living here, but closing your eyes to reality won't bring about all that, you know?
 

tsedek

you know, i dont like to go personal .. but i remember this post of yours: Life, Love, the Wind & the Flute. . .

and what you offer us is no more and no less but to repeat the story of your life on the national scale ... for some reason you like to mess with the wrong type of people like al-ghaliboon ... you are simply drawn to them like a fly to fire ... and not only this but you think that by giving up and making concessions you can convince the other side to do the same .. you think that through self effacing you can tame just everybody ...

using the words of that post of yours, what you are basically saying is something like this: yes, it may not look like this but trust me, we should follow this path because we will survive, we'll manage, we'll solve anything that is out to separate us without losing our own core identities ...

i think you should have learned from your own experience that things don't necessarily work this way ... other people are just waiting to take advantage of your naivety ..some people think that being naive has a spiritual value ... my understanding of the matter is that there is very little spirituality in this .. it's more like immaturity ... being shrewd is often more spiritual than being naive ...

with your advises we have a good chance to end with this: Unfortunately, this was a one-sided endeavor. The partner's was "my way, or the high-way" - I didn't recognize it in time (and even if I did... I can't control my feelings who are -to say the least- having their own logics, or better: no logics at all).

And thus, I came to live a life of 'adjusting' myself, engulfing and sinking deeper and deeper into a world that became my world but I felt a stranger to. A stranger in my own world....

on your good advise we have a good chance to end as strangers in our own world ... strangers in our own country... and that's all ...

i think people should try to be smart enough not to fall twice into the same trap ...
 

November 29, 1947, the UN passed a resolution: 2 states for 2 nations. 1 is a JEWISH state, the other is an ARAB state.

Arab-Israelis who are unhappy with this decision can go to the UN and demand to cancel it. Maybe everyone will benefit from it in the end.

Anyway, when there are 2 states, those who don't want to accept a Jewish state can move to Palestine if they wish so. It's absurd that some members of our parliament support the destruction of our own country. How can they be citizens of the state they wish would no longer exist?
 

It very much depends if you are a believer (in God) or not, ya'Nobody. Perhaps I didn't write it correctly that time, but although sinking deeper into a 'strange' world, I got to know 'myself' 'me' better and better, the 'real me'. I was exposed (and still am) to very difficult challenges and it would have been easy to hurt back, but I didn't. Why? Because that is not the way I am. I am me and I will never, ever let anyone on earth force me to do things that are not 'me', no matter how provoking they are. My identity has been sharpened, and it shines now. I am so damn proud I never kneeled to bad influences and could withstand the provocations. Nobody, for a believing person that is the most important thing, because it is not here that we will be judged upon - but 'later', and that 'later' is eternity (as contrary to these few decennia we are here for and materially can walk on 'land').

So, yes - I very much more am concerned about the spiritual values connected with us, jews, living on this land than I am about practical material 'safeguarding'. I happen to believe that in order to be a 'chosen' people - we have to set a good example and not let us drag into the provocations that are thrown upon us. I am afraid of this losing identity, because I happen to believe the jewish identity will get lost that way, eventhough we have a land, it will be 'empty' spiritually and barren from the real jewish thought.

See the resemblance?
 

"acting properly and ethically"? Your ethics seem to be only flimsily connected to Jewish values, and nor do I recall the "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" commandment, because while it *would* be nice, the world we currently live in has all sorts of people, and they're not all that nice.

"Jewish values" regarding others who live in your land is to make sure that their property rights are protected, that they can get a decent job, that they're not exploited or shunned for being viewed as outsiders, but nowhere does it say to change the outlook of your country for them.

Because once you do that, it stops being your country, and the demands to change the outlook of the country yet further would no longer seem unreasonable if we don't view this as our country anymore. Why should we give the Jews of the world automatic citizenship, Tse? Why should we prefer the Jewish immigrant to the Palestinian refugee? That's where your reasoning is leading us, Tse, and this is how the very foundation of this country is destroyed.

Never do Jewish ethics demand of one to place the safety and well-being of others before that of your own.

You view the very concept of "others" and "your own" to be anathema, Tse, and you try to twist Jewish ethics around to make them appear as if what they really say is that we should focus on breaking barriers, be the most liberalist of the liberals... Well, that isn't the case, Tse, and your Utopian dreams will only lead to a Distopian nightmare. Your beliefs are more similar to those of a man who prays and prays for salvation with a flood rising around his house, while refusing all aid from the *material* such as people on a boat passing him by, than they are to my own.

Your faith is blind, Tse, and that makes it dangerous to those around you.
 

Your ethics seem to be only flimsily connected to Jewish values...
I certainly hope this is not true. It would be a major disappointment in my life if so.

that they're not exploited or shunned for being viewed as outsiders, but nowhere does it say to change the outlook of your country for them.

But they are NO outsiders. You are talking about people that lived here before your grandfather ever set foot on this land. So what if this country is "Jewish"? Does that have to mean they have to sing they got a jewish heart? How does changing an anthem change the outlook of the state? Suddenly there is no Rosh Hashana anymore? No other Jewish national. holidays? What else is specifically Jewish in your eyes? Only the anthem?

Because once you do that, it stops being your country, and the demands to change the outlook of the country yet further would no longer seem unreasonable if we don't view this as our country anymore. Why should we give the Jews of the world automatic citizenship, Tse? Why should we prefer the Jewish immigrant to the Palestinian refugee? That's where your reasoning is leading us, Tse, and this is how the very foundation of this country is destroyed.

Oh yeah? *_* Well, I don't think so RK. I see absolutely no connection.

Never do Jewish ethics demand of one to place the safety and well-being of others before that of your own.

And I do? But, who are 'others' here? We happen to have to live in this country together, RK or do you want to kick all "others" out? As long as we have to live here together we will have to come up with a solution that will make all peoples here feel at home, even(!) if this is a Jewish country. For as far as I can see that is the way to place one's "own" safety first: by not creating the situations that trigger attack. If attack comes after that anyway, then -and only then- one starts to think in the 'we' terms according to who's against who. Before that the only way to consolidate into one 'people' Israelis both the jews and the muslims (and christians) is by goodwill, not by discrimination or attack or forcing them to sing they got a jewish heart when they want to represent this country - also their country.

Your faith is blind, Tse, and that makes it dangerous to those around you.

Well, I think I am not. You make me feel very sad. I am living in a home where understanding for non-Jews is absent all together and you just confirm that they are right. It makes me sad because I start to doubt now. I feel Jewish but if you say my ideology isn't connect to what I think is Jewish ideology (confirming my household's opinions) then I am afraid I am not Jewish.
 

"Jewish values" regarding others who live in your land is to make sure that their property rights are protected, that they can get a decent job, that they're not exploited or shunned for being viewed as outsiders, but nowhere does it say to change the outlook of your country for them.

we should simply give our minorities preferential treatment .. where it's possible to reserve a certain percent of workplaces for them ... to establish a ministerial post for dealing with their problems with a fixed budget of a few billions that will go only to the arab sector ... the core issue is their feeling that they are exploited and discriminated against ...

without going into another debate about if their feelings have a basis in the reality or not there is a very simple way of dealing with this ... and there is no need to mess with the state symbols ...
 

And I do? But, who are 'others' here? We happen to have to live in this country together, RK or do you want to kick all "others" out? As long as we have to live here together we will have to come up with a solution that will make all peoples here feel at home, even(!) if this is a Jewish country. For as far as I can see that is the way to place one's "own" safety first: by not creating the situations that trigger attack. If attack comes after that anyway, then -and only then- one starts to think in the 'we' terms according to who's against who. Before that the only way to consolidate into one 'people' Israelis both the jews and the muslims (and christians) is by goodwill, not by discrimination or attack or forcing them to sing they got a jewish heart when they want to represent this country - also their country.

I see. So a national anthem that is not generalistic and humanistic to the max is, in fact, discrimination. That makes about as much sense as saying the same thing about the flag (why should Arabs like it, Tse? It's a talith with a Star of David!), the holidays, and the automatic citizenship.

Go ahead, Tsedek, reasonably prove to me that the anthem is not the same as the flag, or the national holidays, or the automatic citizenship. Explain to me why you should change this one aspect, without touching on the others. Is the anthem any more an insult to the different religious and national/ethnic groups in Israel than the flag? or the citizenship rights?

Which is, in fact, my exact point against this idiocy. I don't force people to celebrate Passover, Tsedek, and neither do I force them to sing an anthem that they can't relate to. In fact, this country has operated in this manner since its very inception.

What *you* are trying to do, Tsedek, is make the kind of gesture that no one will be satisfied with, if he's bothered by the anthem in the first place. *that's* the whole problem. I don't do slippery slopes, Tse, they're against my nature.


But they are NO outsiders. You are talking about people that lived here before your grandfather ever set foot on this land. So what if this country is "Jewish"? Does that have to mean they have to sing they got a jewish heart? How does changing an anthem change the outlook of the state? Suddenly there is no Rosh Hashana anymore? No other Jewish national. holidays? What else is specifically Jewish in your eyes? Only the anthem?

So your point is that we should change the anthem because we have other Jewish markings in the state. How extremely sensible. Tse, did it ever enter your mind that people who have a problem with the anthem also have a problem with the Jewish outlook of the state as a whole? I brought the matter of immigration previously because that's the one spoken about a lot more than the anthem ever will be.

Well, I think I am not. You make me feel very sad. I am living in a home where understanding for non-Jews is absent all together and you just confirm that they are right. It makes me sad because I start to doubt now. I feel Jewish but if you say my ideology isn't connect to what I think is Jewish ideology (confirming my household's opinions) then I am afraid I am not Jewish.

So now I'm intolerant? Tsedek, we allow people to observe religious holidays wholly separate of the nationally defined holidays, the day of rest is separately defined in the law as per the faith, meaning that a Christian can rest on Sunday while a Muslim can rest on Friday, unlike the Jews in the United States of America who were forced to work on Saturdays for decades, for fear of losing their jobs.

If not changing my national symbols to make them as universalist as possible makes me intolerant, then intolerant I shall be.

Because I don't see this as intolerance, Tsedek. I see this as defining the national symbols of my state.

we should simply give our minorities preferential treatment .. where it's possible to reserve a certain percent of workplaces for them ... to establish a ministerial post for dealing with their problems with a fixed budget of a few billions that will go only to the arab sector ... the core issue is their feeling that they are exploited and discriminated against ...

without going into another debate about if their feelings have a basis in the reality or not there is a very simple way of dealing with this ... and there is no need to mess with the state symbols ...

That's the gist of it, certainly.
 

Go ahead, Tsedek, reasonably prove to me that the anthem is not the same as the flag, or the national holidays, or the automatic citizenship.

There are things that are inherent to a country. A flag is a symbol of that but seriously, could you sing "my muslim heart that cries out to (for example) Mecca"? So what if they have a different flag, that is one thing, but to stand and sing in all earnesty that one is having a jewish heart is downright lying. All the rest that you mentioned ditto. This IS a Jewish home and therefore Jews are allowed to make it their home. Others too, but selectively - just because 'others' have other countries that could be considered home. Frankly I don't care if someone doesn't accept that. That's the way it is. Full stop. However for people already living here Israel should create the most relating conditions. And, to stand there singing one has a jewish heart while he hasn't but still have lived on this land for generations and considers Israel the country he is representing (on for instance international events) it is madness to ask this from her/him.
 

Tsedek... The flag is a talith! A Jewish prayer shawl with the royal symbol of King David on it (which also happens to be viewed as the symbol of Judaism). Why should anyone who isn't Jewish respect such a flag, or view it as representing him? Why shouldn't we change it to something more "neutral" and "inclusive"? After all, how could you ask a devout Muslim or Christian to respect, or even salute, a Jewish symbol?

Go ahead, explain to me how it is different. Or better yet, show me an Israeli Arab who was forced to sing an anthem that he could not relate to. You'll be likelier to find such a potential person among the Druze and Bedoin who serve in the IDF, as they are likelier to encounter such a case. Though from my experience (as someone who served with both Druze and Bedoins) no one forces them to sing the anthem, merely stand as a mark of respect. Those who do sing it, do so out of mutual respect for their comrades, even if the anthem doesn't represent them personally.

So, Tse, who are these people that are so bothered by the anthem? And what would they answer regarding the flag, the holidays, and the citizenship?
 

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""Majadele: Where is it written that a person appointed to be a cabinet minister in Israel must stop being an Arab, and turn into a member of a different religion and ethnicity?

"Is this the enlightened, free democratic state that we wanted to see in Israel? Tell me, please - the Jewish cabinet ministers who were in Arab governments in Morocco and elsewhere, were they told that from the moment they were sworn in, that they had become Muslims?"

Majadele said that he was a citizen of Israel who abided by and respected the law, but that the anthem "doesn't speak to me."

[. . . ]


On public occasions, Majadele rises to his feet during the singing of Hatikvah, but does not join in, he said.

Majadele conceded that he belonged to a Zionist party, Labor, "but I have not turned into a Zionist." He described himself as a "a proud Arab in a Zionist party," in which he found more issues in common than issues that separated Arabs and Jews.

He said he recognized Israel's flag, with its star of David. He said that his office had an Israeli flag, alongside verses from the Koran on the wall.

"I have remained a proud Muslim Arab," Majadele said. "If the government of Israel cannot accept me as such, I cannot serve as a cabinet minister."

source


Saleh Tarif, the first Arab appointed to the Cabinet in Israel's history, refused to sing "Hatikvah" during an event at the Tel Aviv fairgrounds
[. . . ]

"Do you really think I could stand there and sing, 'So long as still within our breasts the Jewish heart beats true?'" Tarif asked during an interview. "It is the Jewish anthem; it is not the anthem of the non-Jewish citizens of Israel."



Source

Israel suddenly has two Arab heroes. In a country where Jewish-Arab alienation runs deep, a pair of critical goals in World Cup soccer have created an instant connection across the divide.

For years, Abas Suan and Walid Badir endured racist taunts from the bleachers. Now they’re the toast of the predominantly Jewish state.

[. . . ]

At a conference on racism in soccer last year, Badir said he hoped that one day the anthem would incorporate something that represents him as an Arab Israeli.

“Then I’ll be able to sing it as well,” he said.

As for Suan, he hopes the goodwill endures.


Source
 

Your first article merely proved that some Israeli Jews want to change the anthem much more than Majadleh does. He was merely replying to those blindly demanding that he sing the anthem (and most of them did it as part of a general campaign to bash Majadleh), and I don't ask of him to do more than to stand as a mark of respect, which is exactly what he does. Same with the second article, with the added benefit that the article stated quite openly that Tarif wasn't viewed favorably by the majority of the Arab public in Israel - to say the least. He was too much of a Zionist sellout, apparently, and Majadleh got the same label though to a lesser extent.

When the Majadlehs outnumber the Tibis and the Bisharas, then we'll have something that's even worth discussing. Now go around and ask Arabs how they view the automatic citizenship given to Jews, Tse. Five points for "colonialism" answers, ten points for "racism". Get 500 points, and you win a prize!

As for Badir, one soccer player isn't what I'd call a grand majority, Tse.
 

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there are muslims in dutch parliament ... and for sure there are immigrants playing in the national team but i've never heard that the hymn is such a problem there even though not all dutch are of german blood ...

and anyway this whole idea about changing the hymn is not practical .... the majority of israelis are against changing it ... and many of the people supporting peace camp do it on understanding that it's about separation and being left alone ... if they learn that the next stage will be playing with the hymn, stripping jewish symbols from the flag and state buildings or whatever it can be, they will simply run away ...

for the peace camp itself to start playing with these ideas is a political suicide ... they can do it of course for the sake of principle but then they should forget about disengagements, evacuating the golan heights and whatever they got on their agenda ...

when israeli arabs demand to stop jewish immigration and refuse to recognize israel as a jewish state, any israeli government that starts stripping references to jews from the hymn or the flag will be simply teared to pieces ... and any political party that introduces such ideas into its program should better not even waste its time on participating in elections
 

teared to pieces=torn to pieces
 

Okay. We can go on forever about this. I still see a huge difference in wanting the state to change it's symbols and having to sing you are a jew while you're not, or be "anthem-less".


Sorry, but I see this difference very clearly and don't try to tie in further wishes with this, because each subject is a separate one.


This is what I think and this is what I believe in. It is not as if this is a century old song, sach hakol the tune was taken from czchew composer and the lyrics only were assembled end 19th century. (or something like that.)


One doesn't have to be so stern as to systematically refuse to everything being asked. There are things that would be a sign of good-will and there are things that are a 100% no-no. A song, an anthem for Israeli's is a good thing I think, especially because one can intermix the jewish part in new lyrics with ease while still including the rest of the population here.
 

czech :D I meant.
 

The very act of yielding whether it is on this or any other issue of national symbolism will signal to the world that Israel is on a path to self destruction.

If you yield here eventually they will wipe anything that even hints at being Jewish from the public sphere.

Think I am wrong? I have seen it happen elsewhere and it can happen much more quickly than you might expect.

Israel needs to stand firm on this issue. For if it doesn't it really means the disintegration of your society.

Can Israel survive if it's not Jewish? I think not!