zondag, december 23, 2007

 

Not Nice People


The Black Panthers (in Hebrew הפנתרים השחורים), PaPanterim Hashkhorim) are an Israeli protest movement of second generation new immigrants from Islamic countries, called Mizrachi Jews.

[. . . ]


On May 18, 1971, "The Night of the Panthers", between 5,000 and 7,000 demonstrators gathered in Zion Square in Jerusalem in a militant protest against the racial discrimination.

[. . . ]


Prior to the demonstration, representatives of the Panthers had met April 13 with Prime Minister Golda Meir, who characterized them as "Not Nice People".

(Wikipedia)


For photos from that time and quotes spoken by "Black Panthers" click here

For the article on which I quote below (A Salute to the Black Panthers), click here


[...]However, from today’s 30-year retrospective, and after engaging in a thorough research of my own, I state without hesitation that the ‘Black Panthers’ were the ground-breaking catalyst for the Mizrahi struggle in Israel. Israel before March 1971 was a different Israel than that of after March 1971. In the former, the economic and cultural oppression was accepted by Mizrahim with submissiveness, except for short rebellious outbursts which were repressed with an iron fist by the government and its Mizrahi collaborators, as in the case of the Wadi Salib Uprising in 1959. [...]

The Black Panthers’ uprising was begun by a group of young, unemployed, dropout residents of the Musrara neighborhood located at the border between East and West Jerusalem - a neighborhood whose Western (Israeli) half came to be as a result of the expulsion of its original Palestinian inhabitants during the War of 1948. Due to its peripheral status at the border with the then Trans-Jordanian side of Jerusalem, the early years of the neighborhood were characterized by issues of daily security,which ended in the wake of the ’67 war, because both the Eastern and Western halves of Jerusalem came beneath Israeli municipal and police control. The neighborhood was then housed by 650 Mizrahi immigrant families, the majority of whom came from North Africa, with a minority coming from Iraq. [...]

The ultimate language of the Black Panthers, for the first time directly attacked the manipulative myth that ‘Security precedes everything’, by which the governments of Mapai [Labor] silenced every protest. They claimed very clearly and directly that a state in which there is such an unequal economic situation of Mizrahim (and of Arabs – as said in certain places, mainly by Bitton and Shemesh) has no right to exist. This was expressed by Martziano’s radical words regarding the division of the cake: “Either the cake will be shared by all or there will be no cake”. [...]

The Black Panthers were also the first to make the connection between the concepts of ‘class’ and ‘ethnic group’. They often compared the way the new Russian immigrants were treated by the absorption authorities (in the early 70s­), with the second generation of Mizrahim who were still living in dire poverty. Thus they added another layer of comparison which previously existed in the collective consciousness– that of the absorption of Ashkenazim, and Mizrahim in the early years of the state. In this way, they completely undermined arguments of ‘Modernization’ and a ‘sociology of Backwardness’, which was based upon cultural rather than class analysis. In this, the Black Panthers preceded the class-oriented sociologists in Israel who appeared not accidentally, only after the era of the Black Panthers became the focus of their research. [...]

The Black Panthers’ greatest achievement was their ability to unmask the issue of the Mizrahim by presenting it as a permanent issue on the political, public and academic agenda in Israel. No one could pretend anymore that the problem was only a matter of ‘subjectivity’ or related to the set of priorities in Mizrahi homes, as Golda Meir once advised: “Let them stop all those family celebrations. Let them learn how to manage their budget rationally. Let them work hard for their rights. They should begin by having smaller families”. From then on it was clear to everyone that the problem exists – though it is continually avoided to be addressed.[...]

....the Panthers prompted a Mizrahi cultural awakening reflective of the cultural oppression of the Mizrahim which began immediately after their first protest and which continued in tandem with the breakdown of Mapai’s hegemony. Initially it was music that blossomed forth, followed by poetry and prose, and above all, academic research. Later came cinematography and the arts. [...]

I would like to emphasize the courage and devotion of the group of youngsters from Musrara who stood up against the forces of oppression and confronted the state headed by Mapai on both the ideological and physical levels. It is sad to note that since the confrontations of the Black Panthers, not one Mizrahi movement has emerged which dared to carry out a direct and brave confrontation with the state.[...]

Black Panthers Founder, Former MK Marciano Dies At 58 - "He always spoke of the poor residents of Jerusalem and never mentiioned his own financial situation"

Sa'adia, respectable, admirable human being, Yedid Nefesh, who's death was hardly mentioned on all of the 3 major tv stations while filth bags like Olmert would probably reach world press coverage, Zichronkha Baruch - May You Rest In Peace...

Tse.



Comments:
Here is a strange show out of the UK. Non Muslims try to live like Muslims for three weeks. They call the show "Make me a Muslim"


Here are the episodes as you can get them on youtube.

Episode 1 Part 1 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNB6mAF1tO4

Episode 1 Part 2 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsWPTsa8a4M

Episode 1 Part 3 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA_6K_mGjKI

Episode 1 Part 4 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O_hYIosNUY

Episode 1 Part 5 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unc9dGdK8tE


Episode 2 Part 1 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdkJICH-i7A

Episode 2 Part 2 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2buCb41iRxY

Episode 2 Part 3 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzKHeSQFBnQ

Episode 2 Part 4 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qiz8Zd9w7Dw

Episode 2 Part 5 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM2qUWaHtVE

Episode 3 Part 1 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot2rPGhZInc

Episode 3 Part 2 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zk6_7r150o

Episode 3 Part 3 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pT4n1Gjh2I

Episode 3 Part 4 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAUDciYOxiQ

Episode 3 Part 5 of 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGHHpCATJXc
 
Thank you, Tsedek to blog about him.
 
Shual, it was my honor. People like Sa'adia Marciano are an example for all mankind.
 
The Black Panthers were also the first to make the connection between the concepts of ‘class’ and ‘ethnic group’. They often compared the way the new Russian immigrants were treated by the absorption authorities (in the early 70s­), with the second generation of Mizrahim who were still living in dire poverty. Thus they added another layer of comparison which previously existed in the collective consciousness– that of the absorption of Ashkenazim, and Mizrahim in the early years of the state. In this way, they completely undermined arguments of ‘Modernization’ and a ‘sociology of Backwardness’, which was based upon cultural rather than class analysis. In this, the Black Panthers preceded the class-oriented sociologists in Israel who appeared not accidentally, only after the era of the Black Panthers became the focus of their research. [...]

the author of this piece is as deficient on logic and common sense as the leaders of the black panthers, but then who really cares ??? :D :D
 
Deze reactie is verwijderd door de auteur.
 
Tsedek said...

Shual, it was my honor. People like Sa'adia Marciano are an example for all mankind.


maybe from some abstract point of view but in general mankind cannot afford emulating saadia marciano because some people still need to do arithmetics for their living... at least to retain the capacity to make two and two and get four ... we simply cannot allow ourselves to sink to this level

:D :D
 
Nobody,

without dissidents mankind would still sit in the trees, throwing bananas at each other.

Hm.. now they sit in front of their computers and wonder why the dissidents still don't want to throw bananas.
 
shual

as a person who grew up in the former soviet union i think you insult the very word dissident by calling black panthers such ... black panthers were no dissidents .. they were a social movement of an extremely low intellectual and political quality ... one that has probably done more harm to its own cause than any inaction could have done ...

these people acted legitimately within israeli political system ... as an article mentioned, they were met by golda before their demonstration ....

just yesterday i saw another surviving dinosaur of theirs interviewed in the news ... this man has got more than his share of the coverage and he was, as golda rightly said about them, not a nice person indeed ...

my grandfather for example was sent straight for 5 years of hard labor to soviet camps ... it goes without saying that he was not given a private audience by the soviet head of state ... he was a dissident ... but black panthers ??? dissidents ??? dont make me laugh ...

they were a movement that was riding the wave of social disontent among mizrachi jews, exploiting and inflating the sense of victimhood in that group which they put to a very good use by inciting hatred and resentment to other immigrant groups about which many russian israelis who made aliyah with me or after can testify from their own personal experience ...
 
Nobody,

I know several people that were directly involved, I saw plenty of films about them and I phoned Marciano back in 1994 cause of a drug addicted jewish fugitive who fled into germany. He organized a meeting with his father. I liked him. Without him, I never met with the sister of the drug-addicted Israeli, and without meeting her ... ah... ok... off-topic.

"inciting hatred and resentment" Pffffffffffft.

Everybody knows that everybody talks about "the underprivileged" or "the poor", but talks about sephardic jews. And, what a surprise ... NIS 51.5b defense-budget 2008 later... we all understand why there are people like you that still live under the reign of the manipulative myth of Goldas "First priority: Security"

I never was a friend of violent actions. But this includes the violent actions of the Israeli state against some part of the citizens. And if you are looking at things like the situation of sephardic woman you can only speak of violence.
 
shaul

your personal story is impressive but what is the lesson of it ???

Everybody knows that everybody talks about "the underprivileged" or "the poor", but talks about sephardic jews.

and what does this mean ?? you dont know to explain yourself ... but if you want to say that black panthers did not talk about sephardic jews but about underprivileged then you are wrong ...

NIS 51.5b defense-budget 2008 later... we all understand why there are people like you that still live under the reign of the manipulative myth of Goldas "First priority: Security"

and why there are people like me ??? maybe because the army once again ran out of place to host sudanese refugees fleeing darfur while we have two countries in the state of civil war around us, another one can get a civil war in the next few months and another two are under constant threat to be taken over by MB .... another one is threatening to wipe out israel off the map and the list goes on...

but of course i may be delusional ... the very moment this tiny country will stop spending on its defense, peace and prosperity will come to the middle east ... HA HA HA

I never was a friend of violent actions. But this includes the violent actions of the Israeli state against some part of the citizens. And if you are looking at things like the situation of sephardic woman you can only speak of violence.

at this point your nonsense is becoming incomprehensible .. naturally i know many sepharadic women because i live here ... and when i lived in jerusalem i used to know many more ... how exactly their situation is one of only violence ??? never mind that here in TA probably 1/3 of people i know are from mixed marriages and they simply dont know if they are mizrahim or ashkenazim ...
 
"naturally i know many sepharadic women because i live here ... and when i lived in jerusalem i used to know many more ..."

Aha: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. ["they -say they- simply dont know if they are mizrahim or ashkenazim ..." Nice from them.]

Ok, serious. I have not the time for a looong and useless discussion in the next days. But I can offer you something, nobody.

I will ask my very well established [sephardic] and experienced counsellor to work out a serious text on the topic with me. And in two weeks I will present you the translation via this website.
 
"never mind that here in TA probably 1/3 of people i know are from mixed marriages and they simply dont know if they are mizrahim or ashkenazim ...
# posted by Blogger Nobody : 2:17 PM "

Yup, same for me. Don't know nor care: Ashkenazi/Mizrahi is not even a dichtomy in the circles I am hanging out with... but it certainly can be used as a tool to make fun of/with someone :)
 
i am actually 1/4 bukhari ... the rest are regular russian jews .. so i am myself 1/4 sepharadi ...
 
so our genius departed to seek professional advise from his "very well established [sephardic] and experienced counsellor" ...


so rakun... in two weeks time be here for a presentation ... our friend will explain to us what is the situation of ashkenazi/mizrahi relationships in israel ...

it's a pity that it's going to take so long .. because next week i will be in jerusalem for the bar mizva of one of my russian friends... and his wife is iraqi ... i would like to come there fully prepared to explain to her and her relatives why the situation of that woman, who works on tv and earns more than her husband, is one of uninterrupted violence from the state of israel ...
 
shual said...

"naturally i know many sepharadic women because i live here ... and when i lived in jerusalem i used to know many more ..."

Aha: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.


by the way shual ... how what i said translates into PTSD ??? why this and not say bipolar disorder ???

i know you are not good at explaining yourself but maybe you can consult another friend of yours, who by chance is also a well established and experienced counsellor on these matters ... maybe at least he knows why you said what you said
 
never mind that here in TA probably 1/3 of people i know are from mixed marriages and they simply dont know if they are mizrahim or ashkenazim you should have come in the '70s ;-)
for sure you'd be shocked. But, eventhough TA and other obvious places are 'integrating' - there STILL are way more mizrahim living these days as a result of those days in places that have way less opportunities to progress in life (or even live life in a relative comfortable way) than ashkenazies.

The black panthers WERE the catalysators of the 'awakening' towards the mizrahim. I have numerous personal experiences that can tell you so. The 'glass ceiling' policy was very effective and still is around a little bit.

I wonder really how anyone can contradict that the black panthers were a breakthrough if one hasn't lived the experience oneself?
 
Nobody, please try to refrain from insulting shoal on a personal basis. What happened with your emotional intelligence lessons? :p
 
Deze reactie is verwijderd door de auteur.
 
Tsedek,

there is no problem. [And I insulted him, too.]

So lets stop beeing bad at each other. Its useless. [And ... I have not the time... in 2007]
 
tsedek ... i dont know what achievements these panthers have achieved and what is natural development that was bound to happen anyway without their help ...whatever it is, their interpretation of israeli immigration policies is demental ....

in fact during my first years in israel i had quite a few debates of this kind with home grown black panthers ... moroccan jews seemed to be particularly affected by it ... you should also know that the hostility was at times extreme ... children were bullied in schools ... there were confrontations .. sometimes physical ones .... and quite a lot of it was around this demental theory of theirs that first mizrahi immigrants had to live in tents, so why dont you sleep on the street ??? it's because the government discriminates only against mizrahim !!!

never mind that some of them were simply too young ... they had never lived in maaborot themselves ... they were making it as a theoretical point ... and it's not even that these people were starving or something ... that black panthers shit had been plainly poisoning inter community relationships in israel at that time ...

and the theory of israeli immigration policies as an example of ashkenazi against mizrahi discrimination itself is nonsense ... that wave of mizrahi immigration has suffered a lot because it was a huge mass of people hitting a very small and poor country and the social system has broken down as a result.. nobody is particularly happy that they had to live in tents but what's the point ??? to send all next immigrations to live on the street to restore justice and to make some mizrahim feel happy ???

the amount of assistance the government could provide to each immigration was simply a function of the level of prosperity in israel at that point and of the scale of a given immigration ... the soviet immigration has eventually overwhelmed the welfare system too ... after a few years they started trimming immigration subsidies and payments reducing them to a fraction ... and there was a shortage of flats in the end ... some people had to live in caravans for a while ...

as to this connection between ethnic group and social class and soviet immigration it's below idiocy ... from when russian israelis have become a social class ???
 
i gave up on emotional intelligence tsedek .. this shit is not for me ... for weeks i was patiently contemplating flowers and listening to classical and world musics as instructed by NC ... but eventually i have reached the conclusion that this shit does not work for me and i am much better off without this cheap sentimentality ... so i am back and nasty ...
 
"so i am back and nasty"

:-)

In fact we have to talk about the question if a country like Israel can afford to let lie idle several 10%s of its human capital. And we have to talk about THE country of Israel, which has inhabitants that are famous for organization.

Its strange that sephardic jews had their golden age in other countries and not [yet] in Israel. And if THEY [not me] still detect that something is wrong with their position we should think about it, cause the future of Israel depends on a high rate of immigration. The time of mass-immigration cause of persecution or collapse of diaspora countries is over.

"The number of new immigrants arriving in Israel in 2007 was 19,700" - far beyond everything is ok and Israel attracs. And I told you already that the Intifada-II gives us the strange impression of times when.... Israel needed some bastards to beat on the table.

Zelekha played it in 2007 some times, or Micha Lindenstrauss. But that seems not enough for a breakthrough.

That was my last post here 2007.

Guten Rutsch, nobody.
 
ok i stopped after i read shauls comment about the story of sephardic women being a story of pure violence..

dude.. settle.. what nonsense.. my mother's family is pretty much as sephardi as it gets and what a bunch of amazingly empowered.. independent and successful women.. some more and some less education but each of them has a gigantic personality with huge achievements that any ashkenazi person would be very proud and envious of..

i think the point is that israel is no longer the place is was from that perspective and that lessons were learned and people moved on..

having said that when my grandmother came to israel from sudan in the early 40s with barely 8 years of schooling and not a cent to her name - nothing stopped her from very quickly becoming in charge of 40 personnel in one of the country's largest organisations at the time and while supporting her family of 5 as well as other siblings of hers who lived with her in a tiny apartment barely fit for a single person - she still managed (goodness knows how) to save money and invest.. and lives her life in complete dignity.. even though she failed to follow golda's advice and she entertained her 8 sisters and brothers very very frequently at her own expense - being the great cook that she (god bless her) still is..
 
Its strange that sephardic jews had their golden age in other countries and not [yet] in Israel. And if THEY [not me] still detect that something is wrong with their position we should think about it, cause the future of Israel depends on a high rate of immigration. The time of mass-immigration cause of persecution or collapse of diaspora countries is over.

the sephardic golden age ended centuries ago while israel barely exists for half a century by now ... and by the time the jewish exodus from the arab world has began the arabs world was a backward and failing place and so educational and other standards of the mizrahi jewry were low ...

in north africa, in places such as algeria and morocco, jews could choose france over israel and so the more educated and modern sections of those communities were lost to france while those who came to israel tended to be more traditional and conservative people ...

there are many reasons for the mizrahi problems .. it's not necessarily about discrimination ....
 
Lirun,

"about the story of sephardic women being a story of pure violence.."

1. I said not "pure"; 2. not "story"; 3. its a quote from a female activist from 2003 [Netta Amar - theory that the level of discrimination of palestinians involves disrimination of sephardic jews]

I wrote it cause I wanted counter-arguments. Like today 90% of sephardic jews finish secondary school and 35% go to a university. Or what I deleted: About 30million € additional money wents from the state into schools with "underprivileged" children -not Israeli arabs-.

We started at "deficient on logic and common sense". And now the picture of arguments from that side looks quite different.

And one last point: State discrimination must not be active. It can be passive, too. Under international law any jew that fled from arab countries should receive reparation. The only one that can really claim that is the State of Israel. If its about the "Rigth of return" the most Israelis I met in my political life came up with it. But do you belive that the state of Israel will really try to get some money? No. Its a bargain chip against the Palestinians.
 
I wrote it cause I wanted counter-arguments. Like today 90% of sephardic jews finish secondary school and 35% go to a university. Or what I deleted: About 30million € additional money wents from the state into schools with "underprivileged" children -not Israeli arabs-.

We started at "deficient on logic and common sense". And now the picture of arguments from that side looks quite different.


well ... i dont have numbers but the gap is closing by all accounts ... also the current generation of young mizrahim doesn't speak languages or something ... so it's not that culturally or linguistically different from the rest of the country .. israelis are becoming more israelis and so, as the rakun said, it's not even a dichotomy in many circles ... certainly not in the circles i or he are hanging out with .... judging by the rate of intermarriages that i see around me there is no problem at all ...
 
Nobody, i dont know what achievements these panthers have achieved and what is natural development that was bound to happen anyway without their help ...

Well, we will never know, will we? But it's good they came to life. Let me tell you how it was, Nobody:

My brother in law was sent to guard a kibutz but was not allowed to eat from the same dishes as the kibutzniks.

Another brother in law had the papers for a job that was being offered but a mentally impaired neighbor whose parents knew the employers got the job.

Husband worked for a national insitution and he and an ashkenazi took a test to become manager there, husband passed the test, ashkenazi did not and still ashkenazi got the job.

And I got hundreds of stories like that.

Did ashkenazi immigrants receive DDT treatment upon arrival? Because mizrahi immigrants did.

The radio and tv wouldn't broadcast mizrahi music until the early 80s. Did you know that?


Until Begin designated David Levy into his cabinet there were no mizrahi jews ever in government.

A few years ago (perhaps 10) it was all over the newspapers how a lawyer who just finished his studies had sent hundreds of sollicitation letters but was never even called for an interview, then he decided to sent 10 letters using a different (ashkenazi) name and he was invited to 4 or 5 places for a job interview within a week.


I would like to ask you if you know how many mizrahi jews live in the peripheria in places either under qassam or katushiya attack and by that the highest unemployment rates compared to ashkenazi jews? those are a result of the discriminating 'placement' by selection those days but the results are still here.

Never heard the story about the south-tel-avivian high-school students that the iriya let study in northern tel-avivian high schools and how they are made to feel there?

Mizrahim were called tjach-tjachiem. Dudu Topaz just expressed reality that time (in his propaganda spot for labor).

You wouldn't want to know how many times I got surprised faces from people I met when I told them my husband is an 'iraqi' - and those faces turned into dismay soon after that.

I don't think you should talk with so much certainty about situations/experiences you haven't experienced yourself. I was there. It was like this. The Black Panthers paved the way for awareness.
 
tsdedek ...

i still have my doubts that the improvement in the mizrahi situation has so much to do with the black panthers ... the mizrahi immigration has been evolving, its educational and other standards have improved over time ... there has been a process of cultural assimilation ... these seem to be more potent factors than a few violent demonstrations by the black panthers ...

as to the mizrahi music i think we should consider going back to the original practice of banning it on tv and radio .... some exceptions can be made, but 99% of it should be taken off the air for the benefit of all involved...

as to the hundreds of stories that you know you should also take into account that such stories are a standard folklore of any immigrant group in israel ... all immigrations in israel practice this culture .. ethiopians have them ... russians have them ... people like to entertain themselves with such notions ... life is unfair ... i am a victim .. they want to keep us poor ...

some of these stories are true ... some are products of imagination .. probably most of them are misinterpretations and exaggerations ... but you should not think that only mizrahim are telling such stories to each other ....
 
"some of these stories are true ... some are products of imagination.."

No.

Example: There is a scene in a documentary about the Yom Kippur war and you can hear over minutes the army radio sending quite [original] messages. An Israeli [of Maroccan descent -hihi- who took part in the war] who watched the film yelled out: "What a fake! They screamed in the army radio and you could here the cries of the wounded in the background!"

Both is true, it has nothing to do with imagination.

Look at Tsedeks Kibbutz story. Hannah Arendt once said that she has to puke in regard of the behaviour of left-secular-Kibbutzim and new-rich germans that sent their children down to live there for a year or two [in the 70ties]. Everything was so nice and polite and clean in between them. ["My brother in law was sent to guard a kibutz but was not allowed to eat from the same dishes as the kibutzniks."]

Both is true.

[I have to check that: I think the only discrimination-free place and the birthplace of the positive realtionship was the Sinai. Sex an drugs and whatever. I have to make some phone calls about that. :-)]
 
Tsedek -

My mother has a master's degree in macroeconomics. She works in a kindergarten.

My maid also has a master's degree in economics. She works as, well, a maid.

A friend's fiancé has master's degree in advanced chemistry and another master's degree in electronics. She works as a security guard.

A family of 5 I know have lived in a caravan for 7 years. The husband and wife each have a master's degree in engineering.

A guy from Kiryat Shmone I know was wounded by a katyusha; his father was wounded by another katyusha; his uncle was killed by a katyusha; the guy himself was later wounded three times in Lebanon.

You know what's the common denominator for all of the above? They're all Russian Jews.

Recently the company I am working in has hired a sysadmin. There were a number of applicants, but the guy they took eventually is an inexperienced kid a year from the army - he's the brother-in-law of one of the owners (and a very dark-skinned Yemenite).

When I am hiring personnel, I first take people who are friends of mine or people I know - in fact, I have recently hired two QA people who have no experience or knowledge of QA but are friends of mine.

Another QA guy I have was hired because he's a friend of another owner - and he, too, has no experience or knowledge of QA.

All of the above is a clear indication of an evil apartheid campaign against Russian Jews, coupled with a vile culture of nepotism. Now all we need is a White Tigers movement and maybe some crazy bitch like Tal Nitzan concluding that it's because we're trying to cover up our evil attempts to eat Palestinian babies.

Yup. That's clearly it. We should all build concentration camps for ourselves and lock us all up in them.
 
shaul

i said some of these stories are true .. the rest are not or misinterpretations ... i did not say all of these stories are wrong ...

the stories of how i was the best possible candidate for a given position but instead they took a russian, mizrahi or whoever ... i think 50% of all immigrants to israel can tell you stories like this ... in my view most of these stories have nothing to do with racial discrimination but with nepotism ... israelis are corrupt people and from my experience, in israeli hi-tech for example, above purely technical level of programmers, QA or tech support, 99% of all nominations are driven mostly by family ties, friendships and similar personal connections ...

regarding tsedek's story about her husband it's impossible that there was nobody from inside already aiming at such a position for his friend or relative ... russians have also found it hard to penetrate such government structures and it has little to do with ashkenazim vs mizrahim ... incidentally if you have a mizrahi friend with ties in such a place it can help you much more than being askenazi or rusi ...

earlier immigrations tend to be well entrenched in such places and so newcomers will struggle to get there ... but it's mostly nepotism and not some imagined state sponsored discrimination ....

most immigrants i met in israel practice victim mentality and claim for discrimination ... for example for some reason south america, or at least argentina, are not classified in the same category of poor nations such as eastern europe, middle east and ethiopia .. so south americans are entitled to less aid than say russians and ethiopians .... argentinians i met at the uni were all extremely bitter about this ... thanks god most of them are of east european descent .. otherwise they would be complaining about racial discrimination too ....
 
loool

rakun .. we wrote almost the same comment without talking to each other ...

by the way .. if anybody can complain about state sponsored discrimination in israel it's indeed russians ... though it's again a case of misinterpretation on their part ... there is no discrimination in the reality ...

russians automatically have a fucked up sivug bithoni because they are coming from a hostile state and so they are in disadvantage when applying for security or defense related jobs .. in a country where every second person is working in something related to security or defense this is indeed a big disadvantage ...
 
The Raccoon said...

Tsedek -

My mother has a master's degree in macroeconomics. She works in a kindergarten.

My maid also has a master's degree in economics. She works as, well, a maid.

A friend's fiancé has master's degree in advanced chemistry and another master's degree in electronics. She works as a security guard.


by the way ... i dont know if you read this thread on the sudanese thinker blog .. here RK is telling a very similar story about his parents .. it seems to be a common russian experience...
 
by the way ... i see that you were commenting on that thread ...

anyway ... to put it short ... as they say in that article:

The Black Panthers were also the first to make the connection between the concepts of ‘class’ and ‘ethnic group’. They often compared the way the new Russian immigrants were treated by the absorption authorities (in the early 70s­), with the second generation of Mizrahim who were still living in dire poverty. Thus they added another layer of comparison which previously existed in the collective consciousness– that of the absorption of Ashkenazim, and Mizrahim in the early years of the state.

dunno what was happening here with the soviet immigration in 70s, but the next wave of russian immigration, and i was part of it, had to taste the consequences of these theories on their skin ...

the sheer scale of antagonism, hostility and pure jealousy that these panthers managed to instigate towards newcomers makes me think that no other immigration to israel besides theirs has ever managed to sink to such a low level ...
 
no serious post-

"shaul" ????

Nobody, did you hear of the story of Ulla Schmidt, Ulla Unseld? [Nononno, she's on top of the Germans 3rd biggest publisher] Well, one day she decided to change her name. She wanted to be called Ulla Berkéwicz. Thats from her jewish grandmother [Berkowitz].

PS: That was NOT a hint to the opnening scene at "I know that you know" from Ulla Berkéwicz, where at the place of Tatjana Arkadjewna Orlowa the ill and strange meet to talk [and drink and sing].

PPS: Ulla Berkéwiczs book is about Berl Katznelson and what could had happen to him if he stayed in Russia. She called him Alon ... Katznelson. [His son, cause the story play in 87']

PPPS: Don't trust me. Call her Ulla Schmidt, if you see her. She will be very pleased.
 
"some crazy bitch like Tal Nitzan"

"Yup. That's clearly it. We should all build concentration camps for ourselves and lock us all up in them."

[Uuuuh... the little green football spambot has focused the blog. I am really scared!]
 
Yo'Honeybunnies :D I was talking about the time before and a while after the Black Panthers. Not about now. During those days there was discrimination towards mizrahi jews whether you like to believe this or not. You think Peres made an apology to them in name of the labor party (that ruled ever since the start of the state until 1977) for fun or something?
 
Sorry, it was Barak, not Peres:


Most recently this topic received a wave of renewed attention. In September 1997 Ehud Barak, leader of the Israeli Labor Party, made a public apology on behalf of the 'generations of Party members' to the Mizrahim for the 'lack of national recognition of their suffering and pioneering efforts'. Barak's public apology spurred a range of responses from scholars, publicists, public figures and politicians. The vast majority of these condemned Barak's declaration as 'hollow' and 'cynical' and presented a denial of any wrong-doing by the country's Ashkenazi founders. The prevailing reaction was articulateby Y. Brunovsky, a leading columnist of the influential daily "Ha'aretz": 'Barak's apology is nothing but a pathetic gimmick' (17 October, 1997). The reaction to Barak's apology demonstrates clearly that while the Mizrahim are beginning to influence the Israeli public discourse, their structurally inferior position has not been widely accepted yet.

LOOK
 
tsedek

it's difficult to respond to a whole article like this because of its size ... but it's ... well ... sorry, shual .. it's deficient on logic and common sense ... here it says:

To be sure, considerable numbers of Ashkenazim (especially refugees from Europe) were also settled in Israel's periphery, but most of them migrated soon after into the country's core regions, using social contacts which the Mizrahim lacked. The Ashkenazim who remained in the periphery generally found ways to segregate themselves from low-income Mizrahim, as detailed below.

the fact that most of them found ways to migrate back to the center is irrelevant to the point the author makes ... yes, these immigrants managed to outsmart the official policy ... but from the beginning the policy was not about askenazim or mizrahim .. it was about establishing right ethnic composition over the whole territory of israel ..

one sentence like this obliterates the whole theory ...there was no need for the author to continue to waste paper and internet storage capacity after acknowledging the fact that the government was trying to send both types of immigrants to the periphery, not just mizrahim ... the fact that some askenazim found ways to sabotage the government's policy or preferred to isolate themselves from other immigrants is unintended result ....

also i can promise you that all immigrations prefer to isolate themselves .. absolutely all of them ...90% of first generation immigrants dream about creating their own ghettos and avoiding mixing with others ... russians, ethiopians .. all of them ... it's an utter lie invented by our mahatma-gandhis that immigrants are just dreaming about integrating into the mainstream society while this society is rejecting them ... all immigrants are dreaming about living in their own neighborhoods where everybody around speaks russian, or amharic, or whatever ... on coming back home they all tune to sattelite channels of their countries of origin ... in their homes they listen to their music and they prefer to hang out in places where russian or amharic music is played and where they serve food that these people are used to from childhood ... 90% of first generation immigrants want segregation ... i promise you ... from the state they only want welfare and jobs, preferably in russian or amharic and without need to learn hebrew ...

also i am the wrong type of person to share such articles with ... i am worried by the situation in our periphery myself .. both in galilee and in particular in negev ... to the point that i largely support arnon soffer's idea of starving the center of resources for the sake of pushing people to the periphery .. and this despite the fact that i live in TA ...
 
another pearl from the same article

The settlement of frontier regions was a complementary control strategy, because it performed two main functions: (a) it resettled many of the Mizrahim in the periphery, thereby distancing them from Israel's main loci of power and influence; and (b) it settled large numbers of Mizrahim on confiscated Arab land and villages, thereby driving a wedge of conflict between the two main non-Ashkenazi groups which together could threaten Ashkenazi dominance.

the fact that many mizrahim fled the arab world being effectively robbed of their possessions without any compensation was plainly not enough to drive a wedge between them and arabs ... the israeli government should have devised a special policy for achieving this ...
 
Tse, dame,
Calling people honeybunnie is in my opinion not right, nor does it do any good to the average cool as a jewel rabbit.
 
shaul

i dont know how you have decided that under international law it is israel's responsibility to seek to enforce the rights of middle eastern jews who fled arab countries..

the reparation for holocaust victims is different given it also accounted for populations that were entirely wiped out..

in any event.. i agree that discrimination exists.. 100%.. i have a european family name and i am sometimes disgusted by things people say to me about middle eastern jews under the assumption that i am not one and that i will therefore not be offended.. i also find advertising in a country to always be a very interesting reflection of social values.. israeli advertising typically makes us look swedish.. the kids are normally blond and the parents always very fair coloured.. i dont understand it.. for me black is beautiful.. the media doesnt seem to think so..

but to paint the story of middle eastern jews as some ethnic tragedy i think is a bit insulting.. and highly inaccurate..

i think some of our ideas are getting lost in translation..

:)
 
Lirun -

You're from a Special Designated Victim Group and you're gonna fucking like it whether you wanna or not!

Got it?

Now start complaining, damn it!

:)
 
im sooo frikkin sick of frikkin complaining.. why does everyone always make me complain dammmmmit..

how was that? does the punctuation work?

feel free to track changes..
 
no lirun ... it's not enough, but i will help you

rakun .. damn it ... i wrecked my back and spend all the last week in bed ... tomorrow i go to this arab doctor dr. badri from the jaffa sniff of leumit to beg him to give me a 'sick' .. can you imagine a worse ethnic humiliation for the proud russian i am ??? life is so frikkin unfair !!!

!!! מוות למזרחים
 
Nobody, as to the mizrahi music i think we should consider going back to the original practice of banning it on tv and radio .... some exceptions can be made, but 99% of it should be taken off the air for the benefit of all involved...


You know you should hire a bodyguard, I could kill you for that :D
 
we can make a deal ... you will do me a favor with this noise they call mizrahi music and in exchange you will have my permission to take off the air that israeli channel in russian ... i think it's a fair deal and a good one socially because in this way we will force all these monkeys to start integrating instead of trying to recreate their jungles here ...
 
ok so i watched the show that anoniem recommended in the first comment.. all three episodes.. really interesting..
 
Lirun -

Too much emotional intelligence, mate... you should really blow a fuse when you're a member of a Specially Designated Victim Group. Maybe even burn an embassy of an entirely random country or something :)

NB -

Do you count Sheva as Mizrahi?
Or the comparatively recent spate of humorous Mizrahi music?
And would you ban 'em?

'Cause if you do, I am joining Tsedek in the hunt for your liver, bro :)

And as for the Russian language channels - amen! We should bring back the "Ivri daber Ivrit" campaign! Them jungles certainly need to be cut down...

...only the Political Correctness Green Peace will probably lynch you for ethnic insensitivity or something.
 
you mean rakun that only the russian channel and not mizrahi music ??? hmmm ... i dont think i can agree to this because ... you see, i am for racial equality and against discrimination .. if we start with my plan then everybody should get fucked ... if only for the sake of justice
 
"My maid also has a master's degree in economics. She works as, well, a maid."

"I wrote it cause I wanted counter-arguments. Like today 90% of sephardic jews finish secondary school and 35% go to a university."

Racoons Maid.

To study and then become Racoons Maid.

Now I understood the game in Israel. [Thank you Racoon for your stupid comments that represent a class.]
 
Dear Shual,

I am blinded by the shining, towering might of your intellect. Seriously. The depths of understanding you can effortlessly fathom through an offhand remark. The cunning deconstruction of my words and the stupefying conclusions about classes and Israel. The monocarbon-fiber-sharp wit evident in your reply...

Frankly, I am too stunned and dazzled by your superhuman cognitive capabilities to continue.

And being a spam-bot, well, what can I say?
 
NB -

No, mate, I reckon both the Russian and the Mizrahi channels should go. But there is certainly a place of honor for Sheva and silly Mizrahi on galgala"tz hits parades :)
 
Racoon,

are you talking to your maid? [Poor maid.]
 
rakun

regarding that "crazy bitch tal nitzan" and her contention that Israelis has dehumanized Palestinians so much that they can no longer even rape them, check this

:D :D
 
:)
 
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