zondag, september 23, 2007


What the heck?

I was trying to find a newsarticle, that was mentioned at Nizo's, about a double passport holder who was apprehended in Lebanon in connection with the murder of a Lebanese citizen. Being that the passport holder supposedly is Israeli, it sounds interesting. I can't find this story anywhere :(

Anyway, during my (google) search I stumbled upon the following which left me with my mouth wide open. I really didn't know. Did you?

Visa Application for Lebanon.

Restricted entry: The Government of Lebanon refuses entry to holders of Israeli and Palestinian passports. . . [...]

I knew about Israeli passport holders (duh!) - but Palestinian passport holders as well? Isn't that a bit strange? Especially seen in the light that Syrians don't need a visa at all (they're separately mentioned in the conditions for visa application in the above link) as well as most other arab citizens.

Palestinians are 'the enemy' as well?

Anyway, I thought this was interesting since 'we' Israeli's are shouting loud about the refusal having us (in peaceful manner :D ) in Lebanon (look at the criticism Lisa got and the reactions to that from Israeli's), but what is the excuse for refusing Palestinians? Seems like their passport 'situation' (and with that their space for moving around) is way more f-ed up yet, you never hear about that...

(and yes, yes: I know - 'israel' is the main 'perpetrator' restricting the palestinian freedom to move around. but this is a known fact and besides is argued -even if thought of as falsely- because of the situation. with lebanon though it's really strange since they are not in the same situation and have no reason at all to refuse visas to Palestinians).


here's the article in english:


and in Hebrew (courtesy of NC):

Palestinians can exit and enter Lebanon. All they need is a Lebanese travel document which can be issued at any Lebanese embassy around the world. The fee for a 1-year document is $40, and for a 5-year document is $200.

This is the original article about the spy arrested in Lebanon:


The English text is utterly unprofessional. There is no paper called "Al-Akhbar Wa-Sapir".
Syrian citizens do not need a visa to enter Lebanon, and Lebanese citizens do not need a visa to enter Syria. It's a reciprocal agreement between the two countries.
Lebanon has also accepted more than 50,000 Iraqi refugees.

Not only does your racist country not accept 1 Palestinian refugee, and accepts Africans only for publicity purposes (and even then, grudgingly), it also tries to get rid of the Palestinians who are not in "Israel"-proper.

So tell me, what qualifies you to comment on this issue, as someone who supports "Israel"?
as a matter of fact 'fighting' is not 'like a man' -
fighting is childish.

Oh yeah? Maybe you could have said that to the resistance against the Nazis.
Alghaliboon so this information of that iranian site is wrong? Besides. . . I don't think there is a Lebanese embassy in Palestine. As a matter of fact, I'm quite sure of that.

You give me an arabic newsarticle to read? :D :D :D But, thank you anyway. I appreciate it. Pity I don't understand one word of it.

Great that Lebanon has accepted 50,ooo Iraqi refugees. Kudos and my compliments. (Do you have a verification for that?) But Israel is the 'enemy' of all arab countries (except Jordan and Egypt) and it would be irresponsible to welcome here that many 'ex-enemies' - or at least potential. Then there is the matter of the population balance - with so many arab countries here why would a tiny country like Israel have to take in 'brothers'? Now, if there would be peace and organizations such as those you support wouldn't want to wipe us off the map, the whole situation would be different.

"For publicity purposes"??? That's what you make of it. There is a whole discussion going on about the ethics and the paradox of taking in 'enemies' but who are refugees and in danger. Go complain to Egypt where they are beaten to death. Don't come complaining to a country that is already itself the target of continuous attack only because it exists.

How exactly does Israel try to get rid of the Palestinians that are not in "Israel proper'? This is the first I hear about that, so enlighten me.

As for your last comment: I invite you. Let's go to Jericho together. . . feel part of an ever growing 'resistance' - but then peaceful - that want justice and peace and LIFE Alghaliboon :( Not only for themselves but, very unselfishly: for their families, and friends and neighbors - people with a conscience, that don't want to drag further generations in this ongoing bloodshed and hatred and be the pawns of politicians anymore.

Want to come?
Nizo thanks babe ;-)
I went to the macolet this afternoon and saw a photo of him on the front page. I haven't read the article yet, but did read that he -already in 1996- was very disappointed from Israel and wanted to become a muslim. And so he did. I am going to read the newspaper in a while and then I'll know more (like why he became disappointed in Israel etc.)
Tsedek, Palestinians cannot leave Gaza or WB without approval from "Israel", and can only do so through either Egypt or Jordan. Lebanon has embassies in both these countries, and a Palestinian can apply for a travel document. Besides, any passport, even Lebanese, bearing an "Israeli" stamp is banned from entering the country (someone who has dual citizenship can circumvent that by visiting with a different passport).

If you put the Arabic article in google translator, the translation is not too bad; even if not in 100% proper English, it will let you deduce what the original sentence is trying to say. That's because it's written in formal Arabic.

Yes, the 50,000 figure is confirmed by UN agencies, though HRW says there's twice as many refugees, many of them are here illegally. In addition, Syria has taken in more than 1.5 million Iraqi refugees.

In contrast, the "Israel" that claims to be all for mending bridges with Arabs, has not allowed one Iraqi refugee in, even as a token gesture of good will. USA, which caused this whole bloodletting, has not taken in a mere 1,135 refugees. How nice.

There is something fundamentally wrong with your logic. Lebanon is only half the size of "Israel", has a far more delicate sectarian make-up, has seen continuous full-scale bloodshed for decades (and not the couple of toy rockets that fall in a desert, which make you call for massacres against Palestinians and Lebanese), and yet is home not only to 500,000 Palestinian refugees, but also tens of thousands of Iraqis and Armenians. But then you praise our behavior for taking in those refugees. Where's the logic in that? You expect us to do so, even though our problems are far more complicated than yours (even though you claim uniqueness in that respect, because you like to be treated uniquely in all times and places).

So if it weren't for the existence of Hezbullah and Hamas (or other hostile groups), then you would be letting in Palestinian refugees? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

As for me complaining about Egypt's treatment of the African refugees, that, I believe, is a fallacy. Besides, who said I think highly of the Egyptian authorities? And aren't they your best buddies, along with the Shi'ite-hating, Christian-beheading Saudis?

How does "Israel" try to get rid of the Palestinians of WB & GS?? Oh, don't pretend innocence, please. Creating such conditions as to force members of a particular group to leave, or to perish in whole or in part, is actually considered genocide. Starving Gaza Strip (because they threw a few rockets that did not even cause anything more than a broken tile and some 'shocked soldiers' - THAT's FUNNY, shocked soldiers hahaha ) and building walls to choke villages and appropriate villagers' lands, sending settlers to uproot olive trees which is the source of livelihood for Palestinian villagers, all this is what - just a bunch of drunk and high kids on the block, having fun with bulldozers, Uzis, and Merkavas ?

Tsedek, time for you to wake up. That's not how peace is achieved. Peace is achieved by walking the talk. Walk the talk. Go to Bil'in and other such villages, participate in peaceful resistance against the wall, against house demolitions, against roadblocks, against humiliation. Advocate giving people back their dignity, as well as their sons who are thrown in jails without any trial even. You can't return those who were murdered in cold blood by the soldiers who are the "pride" of your nation, but you can demand that they stand trial for their crimes against innocent people. Thousands of Palestinian civilians, more than 900 children among them, thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese during 18 years of occupation of South Lebanon. For the torture camps of Ansar and Khiam. For the thousands of missing Palestinians and Lebanese, who were last seen at the hands of "Israeli" forces. For the 1200 Lebanese you killed last summer. For all the innocent people who did not want to have anything to do with "Israel", but were nevertheless bombed, in order to force them to rebel against the Palestinians. For the babies massacred in Qana, Muslims and Christians alike, for the disabled children of Qana last summer. Apologize to all those people who have lost loved ones, for turning them into your sacrificial lambs for the purpose of ridding yourselves of the ghost of Hitler, and in the process yourselves becoming, in our eyes, Nazis.

Can you even look those people in the eye Tsedek? Ask that to yourself.

You want peace? It can only be achieved by bringing to justice those who have done all that I mentioned above. Apologizing and offering compensation (in all likelihood, the families of those who have lost loved ones would not even accept your money. I wouldn't. Because my brother is worth more than any amount of money).

Concerts do not give people their lives back. You know, when you lose someone, you feel part of you has died. A big part of you. When on top of that you lose your home, you feel another part of you has been destroyed. And if, after having lost all that, you are asked to abandon the only thing -- a cause for which you are willing to die -- that means anything to you at all, at that point, how would you feel? Would you say, oh, sure, I will gladly attend this concert, I am all for peace? Sorry Tsedek this isn't how it works. I hate to break it to you, but if your soldiers suffer from "shock" by a half-meter rocket, maybe I am suffering from more than mere "shock" by the building-toppling bombs. And you know what that is? Hatred. You think your bombs would force us to submit and accept our fate, to grin and bear it, you thought that all along, didn't you. Your entire country did. But you were wrong. You created hatred where there was none. You did it deliberately and willingly. You want to know why? Because you cannot live with the knowledge that no one hates you, that no one wants you destroyed. The idea of being surrounded by enemies, by hateful hoards of Arabs, is what holds your nation together. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. And you kill for it. You kill and dismiss it as an accident, or call the victim a terrorist and close the file. You kill 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000, 1 million, and then what? Did you come here to be a 'normal' nation, or to transport Hitler's killing fields and concentration camps to the Middle East? Your concept of peace is the silence of the graveyard. The subjugated, enslaved Muslims who queuee to receive permission to enter one of the Holiest places for Islam. Who wait for hours to be allowed through a roadblock. Whose children die on the way to the hospital because they are not allowed through a roadblock by a "righteous" soldier who takes his time checking IDs. What's an hour, an hour and a half, can't your injured child hold on for that long? What's the rush, you don't love your kids anyway. If the die you say, Allah gave him and Allah took him away. So leave that to Allah, says your righteous soldier, out there to defend the Jewish people from that criminal, terrorist-to-be child, who dies in the arms of his parents.

You ever wondered what's life like for those on the other side? How they feel? Do you even realize that they feel pain at the loss of loved ones, or do you think that they hate their children and use them as shields? Do you humanize your enemies, or do you dehumanize them to rid yourself of the guilt (lest it appear out of nowhere) of having killed them, starved them, left them to rot without water and electricity, just to show what you are capable of in the face of a few toy rockets? Is this your idea of peace-loving behavior, Tsedek? Is this your idea of providing security for the children of Sderot? Do you really think that the children of Gaza will grow up to have respect for "Israel" because of its acts, or to love their life in the biggest prison in the world? And do you think that by having them grow up in such a world, you are furthering "Israeli" security aims?

If I say I have nothing else to live for, your people interpret this as proof that their army achieved victory. But your victory could not be farther away than it is now. You win when you do all I mentioned above. That is the only victory you can ever achieve. And it's a win-win for all. You will not lose in having my Palestinian refugee friends as neighbors and friends. You will not lose in having my brothers in Hezbullah, and their families, as friendly villagers welcoming you to their villages, sharing with you everything they have.

You have to decide what you want. Do you want peace at all costs, or do you want a zionist state at all costs?

It is wrong to ask of someone who has lost all that he had, what you asked. If those who haven't lost loved ones cannot find in themselves to embrace peace and compromise, how can you expect it from those who have lost everything? Would your Holocaust survivors have accepted to 'make peace' with an unrepentant Germany?

Sorry Tsedek, as much as I yearn for peace deep inside, you are talking about peace to the wrong person.
Alghaliboon, "It's my way or the highway" ? That's how you are prepared to live in peace. You have decided that nobody else but yourselves are allowed to feel the victim. It doesn't matter that it takes two to tango, you present it as if there is only one devil and one angel. You deligitimize feelings of others because you can not feel them and so, 'they are wrong' and 'the cause of it all' - just because you cannot understand those feelings. It takes a little transcending from one's own place in the deep valley of pain to understand that same plae of pain only in another location of others, you know? Because 'you' (meaning who you say you represent) are hurt doesn't at all mean others, seeing things opposite from where you see them, aren't hurt just the same. So, this is a struggle to hurt each other most? Because that's exactly what you are saying: "you're pain, security, dignity, life doesn't mean a thing to me as long as I can't tell you how you should live.

So no, Alghalboon you don't yearn for peace. You yearn for control. That's a completely different matter.
An absolute majority of Lebanese(majority of Christians/Druze/Sunni and a minority of Shia)in Lebanon today in Sept 2007 are against Hizballah and Nassrallah

Jumblatt has said :"They have taken the whole country hostage," Jumblatt said, referring to Hezbollah and its allies, Syria and Iran. "They have succeeded in stealing our dreams of a year and a half ago."
No Tsedek, it's either peace or a zionist state. Can't have your cake and eat it too. You can choose coexistence and equality, or you can choose war and injustice. The first will pave the way to a certain amount of healing for those who have lost loved ones in the conflict. The second will only deepen the wound and widen its scope. It's not about me setting conditions and wanting it my way. It's about me giving you a clear choice. That means, the freedom to choose. If you can live with the guilt of having chosen the second and not the first, then you should not talk about how much you yearn for peace. Peace is not, I repeat, NOT the silence of the graveyard. Only the "Israeli" understanding of peace is equivalent to that. This conflict started when some people, from the farthest corners of Russia and even all the way back in India, decided they had more right to a particular strip of land, than their present inhabitants. Maybe you don't see how ridiculous your claim that God has given you (the "chosen" people) this land, is. Either you are irrational fanatics, or you are secular modernists. Which one are you? Again, you cannot have it both ways. I make no secret of being a fanatic. I admit it and do not attempt to portray myself as a secular modernist, etc. Your people, on the other hand, do have such pretensions. You can't imagine how schizophrenic and utterly confused your people sound. Your people, with their contradictory statements and pretending to be something they're not, have made a mockery of Judaism. While zionists claimed that having a Jewish state would at last save the Jews from the anti-Semitism that allegedly plagued the world, the realization of that dream has caused more anti-Semitism than there has ever been throughout millenia of Jewish life in Europe and Asia. It is not I who is claiming a monopoly on being the victim. Quite the contrary. It is you -- your people -- who have done it for millenia, and continue to do so to this day. Your every breath is an expression of your belief in your "unique" predicament of victimization by the whole world, of being an alleged "light onto the nations" and yet being hated "for being so". The disregard for the suffering of others, the disregard of the attachment of others to the land that you claim as yours, the attempt to minimize the victimization of others by arguing that the actual victims of your racist project do not see the victims and pain of your side, is all reminiscent of a movement that cares neither for peace, nor for life, nor justice. Not for Jews, and most certainly not for your neighbors.

You expect me to feel/see the pain of those who have left the luxury of having citizenship of western countries and a decent life, and who have come to this region to claim that they belong here more than those who have lived here for generations and millenia, that they have a right to settle a land that they have not even purchased ("occupied in war fair and square")? You expect me to feel the pain of the parents who have settled in a war zone amidst millions of Palestinians who are deprived daily of their dignity, and you expect me to feel pity and sympathy for them when they lose their child in an attack? Well, I hate to disappoint you Tsedek, but I feel neither pity nor pain for those children or their parents or siblings. I feel that they rightly deserve what they got. Tell me, why did those "Jews" come in hoardes to Palestine? To do that which they could not do against the Europeans? To show their machoness? Their "Jewish pride"? That they, too, could be fascists? To compete with the actions of the Nazis, with their Uzis and Merkavas and F-16s? And even then, we say we accept their presence in our midst on only one condition: that they dismantle the racist system that they have erected, which is the cause of all this bloodshed. It is not even relevant who started this conflict. What is relevant is who wants to end the bloodshed. And you are not one of those who want to end it, Tsedek, even though you genuinely think you are.
"g", you mean Jumblatt the slave of Syria for decades (and will continue to be so when there is a Sunni regime there), who, along with Samir Geagea the slave of "Israel", is playing the role of Nostradamus reincardnated these days?

And by "absolute majority" you mean the absolute majority of the 30% of Lebanese (non-Shi'ites and non-Christians ) ?

Let us talk about "absolute majority." The absolute majority are the 65% of Lebanese (of a more than representative sample of 60,000) who said they support Hezbullah's ally Michel Aoun for presidency, followed by a mere 8% for the "compromise" candidate Riad Salemeh, followed by 7% for the Army Commander Michel Suleiman, 7% for war criminal Samir Gea'gea, and a shy 5% and 4% for two of the loyalists's major candidates, Nassib Lahoud and Butros Harb respectively. That's absolute majority for you.
Alghaliboon, sweetie - I am looking for peace. No, not by trying to make history the future - and I think you might think that's unfair because of the results of history, but you cannot deny something that exists - it is just impossible. I think you are being very unfair. I am looking for coexistence and equality within countries and between them. You want to rob the Israelis of their country and by pursuing this robb Palestinians of a country as well, as measures taken for the protection of Israeli's and their country do exactly that. You think that's fair for someone that is neither a Palestinian nor having to live in their condition?

It's about me giving you a clear choice. That means, the freedom to choose.
and thus: your way or the highway, as I wrote before. YOU see things your way and feel things your way and I have to be restricted to fulfill one of those choices. Nothing more, nothing less. You tell me to throw away my country and live up to your standards or fight for it. You don't accept I live and I exist - and find a mutually satisfactory solution so everybody can live and exist (in peace and dignity). Can't you really see this?

Peace is not, I repeat, NOT the silence of the graveyard.
No, it is not. alghaliboon - it most certainly is NOT.
bereaved families
Peace is the greatest sacrifice people having lost dear ones can make, the most unselfish sacrifice for it makes the deaths of those they loved most into the seeds of hope and life of the future generations... so they haven't died for nothing - but more of the same in the cycle of violence and destruction.

What is relevant is who wants to end the bloodshed.
I know you think you are following the truth concerning 'justice' with wanting to shed blood for stopping bloodshed - but Alghaliboon honestly - you are not. You are one screw in a machine that keeps it going :-(
alghaliboon,actually I'm sure the majority of Lebanese would be very happy if Hizbollah and its "divine" supporters pack their bags and move to Iran

Here are the facts:A survey by the Pew Research Centre based on face to face interviews with 1000 respondents, conducted between April 9 and May 7, 2007 found that two thirds of Lebanese have an unfavorable view of Hizbullah and Hassan Nasrallah.

"g", I am sure 1,000 is a more representative sample than 60,000.
For information Tsedek:
individuals bearing palestinisn passports are prohibited for a practical justification declared by officials: first when palestinians in Syria were allowed to visit their relatives in Lebanon last 5 years 60,000 did not return back to Syria. during the civil war Lebanon became focal point for palestinians where as thousands joined ranks of PLo and fueled the civil and/or lebanese-palestinian war in Lebanon. Even right today: there is rumor that palestinians residing in Iraq,ex army trained at Saddam's time, are slipping into lebanon, facilitated by some government officials, to join ranks and troops with some Lebanese parties to wage war against some other Lebanese parties.
Thank you Ibraheem, so that's the reason. In principle not that much different from Israel's policy regarding that subject. Protection from potential extremists...
"Ibrahim" or shall I call you AVRAHAM, where do you come up with such fairy tales? The overwhelming majority of Palestinian refugees in Syria and Iraq (and all Palestinian refugees in Lebanon) do not have the Palestinian passport. So no, it is not based on the fairy tale that they never did return, or that they are coming to join ranks and fight one Lebanese party against another. Quit spreading your baseless propaganda.
These are SOME of the conditions governing Palestinians' entry and stay in Lebanon, and as you can see, there's nothing of the sort that your zionazi person claims is the case:

-If the person is a foreigner married to a Palestinian refugee from Lebanon, he would be granted an annual stay after having provided a valid marriage certificate proving the legality of the cohabitation.

-If the Palestinian is a refugee from outside Lebanon and is married to a Palestinian refugee from Lebanon, the marriage should be registered at the Palestinian refugees affairs department at the UNRWA, following which the refugee is granted a travel document.

-If the Palestinian is a refugee residing in Lebanon and holder of an other foreign nationality his register will be crossed out by correspondence sent to the refugees affairs department and thus will be headed as foreigner in Lebanon.

-If the Palestinian is registered at the refugees affairs department and out the directorate General of the "Sureté Générale" within the "under study" category, he is treated as a holder of a stay permit.
no fairy tales. you only need to be around to know the tribal wars of Arabs. I think you are not around or around but round and round. Same like the civil war in lebanon and same like the terrorist's campaign of nahr albared time will show you... like the circles that you find in the wind mill of your mind
By the way, there are no Palestinian refugees from Iraq who have arrived in Lebanon -- they are in 3 main locations: tent camp in Jordan, re-settled in Brazil, or fled to India. Aside from a few cases making their way into Syria, and those remaining in Iraq.
the terrorist's campaign of nahr albared
There were few Palestinians involved with Fateh al Islam, the overwhelming majority of the some-300 fighters came from your beloved Saudi Arabia and other Sunni countries (from which Al-Qaida sprang up, now your beloved USA's and "Israel's" best friends in Iraq btw), and that being thanks to your beloved wahabi protector and funder, none other than the "khadim" al Haramein al Sharifein.

انتَ عميل صهيوني يا كلب
BTW Avraham, or pretend-be "Ibrahim", since you claim to be an Arab, tell me, why don't you use the same terminology to refer to the "IDF" and "Israel" as you use to refer to Fateh al-Islam? Is it because you are afraid of exposing your beloved cowards in the Lebanese army, who did not raise a finger against the zionazis who were killing women and children left and right? Or is it because killing Muslims (especially the "wrong" kind of Muslims, i.e. Shi'a) is "kosher" for you?
Mental masturbation
Diarreha of words
mental circles
redigestion of meaningless ideology preferring stupid ideas over wellfare of people.... in one sentence: typical arab mentality
Labayk, all life is sacred. Something that most arabs do not understand. Arabs pick up enemies based on idelogy and not based on practical danger. Even your name carries this seed of choosing whom to hate or to love. The funny part is that some clerics can tell you different stories depending on the situation some leader wants. For some generations they will tell you prophet tells you to hate x, for others they will tell you to hate some one else. Isn't it how some clerics controll their follower to make them hate your people and kill them in the name of God and prophet?
I am not a person whom you would hate in life, why did you channel all your hate towards me? When you want to play war you would expect death and destruction. I do not put the rules for wars, people do. When you want to bomb civilians and the other side bomb your civilians why would you consider it unfair game?? Is it because you think the other side has more fire power and he should refrain from using his full power? Any how all life is sacred you just have to learn not to add to your list of enemies, your people have a long list already and Israelis could be out of your list. Just remember, others are taking your people as enemies based on the same principle that you have picked Israelis as your enemies.... absolute ignorance and stupidity.
So let me ask you this, "Ibrahim", WHAT are you? You will answer with the typical "I am a human being first and foremost, the rest doesn't matter", but I really would like to know what you consider yourself apart from that, if you do at all. You speak about "Arabs" as if you are not an Arab yourself, which makes me wonder if your name is not merely an attempt to disguise your identity (hence my reference to Avraham). You have it all wrong about me, btw, and more importantly, you have it all wrong about the Prophet and clerics. First, the Prophet did not HATE. The Prophet was MERCIFUL towards all the enemies of Islam, even on the battlefield. And we put that into practice ourselves. We treat our captives with mercy. The same cannot be said about those (your favorite kind of people, the zionazis) who treat our captives worse than they would treat animals (and that's an understatement), who do horrible things that I would not find fit to mention here (but look up what was done to Mustafa Dirani who was kidnapped from his own home in front of his entire family, from the depth of Lebanon). Oh, no, not at all, I do not expect "fair game" from the zionazis. To say that I do would mean that I think of them as just. Far from it. I do not expect any HUMAN behavior, I expect them to behave as the animals that they are. And they never let me down when it comes to that. By the way, you should correct your facts -- maybe look up at how we have often targeted SOLELY military targets, and in response your beloved zionists have responded by deliberately massacring innocent people. Often, this so-called "retaliation" was in response to attacks on "Israeli" occupation SOLDIERS INSIDE LEBANON, not inside "Israel". Excuse me, but, what if I may ask does this have to do with civilian-for-civilian/eye-for-an-eye issue that you brought up? Unless you and your zionazi friends think that all zionazi occupation soldiers are to be considered "civilians." Which can explain a lot of things, actually, including the news stories about how soldiers "suffered from shock" from the Qassam attack on a military base in occupied southern Palestine.

No, not all life is sacred. That is like saying that the life of a criminal, of a mass-murderer, is sacred. That is like saying that the life of Hitler was sacred. But now that the Nazis are a thing of history, double standards are needed because otherwise how else can you delegitimize the resistance against mass-murderers and occupiers? Of course, by reference to the sacredness of all life. Get real.
Labayk, there is nothing wrong with saying: “I am a human being first and foremost, the rest doesn’t matter”. It is exactly what I believe in and for a very good reason since I have mixed blood running in my veins. I have the choice and I am a free person. You are saying: “The prophet did not hate”, you might find many people who would and could challenge this statement. What I know for sure is that clerics do hate and they use their knowledge of religion to make you hate whomever they want you to hate. Isn’t it what some clerics are doing to make some people hate your people, killing your people and even bragging about it as they way to enter heavens????? I will use your logic or belief to tell you that Judaism and Christianity existed in Arabian Peninsula during the reign of “Prophet” but right after his death clerics or extremists removed all presence of them from Arabian Peninsula. So clerics do hate by 2 examples that I mentioned to you.
I will use your logic too: “we treat our captives with mercy”, hey this is not what Hezbollah and Amal used to do to each other’s captives, I think they used to hack each other to death. They used to pull the wounded from the ambulances and hack each other to death. I gave you an example near to your people. If you want a more general example look at how Alqaeda treats its captives… By beheading them. Speaking of Dirani he came alive from his ordeal but I do not think Arad did. What, allegedly, happened to Dirani is cruel if it was true period no buts and no ifs. However what happened to Arad was more cruel no buts or ifs. Not all people are saints you know but I find more saints at the Israeli side rather than at the Arab side.
I do not have to check anything about my beloved. Shooting rockets at civilians are crimes of war, no buts and no ifs. Shooting at civilians intentionally is a crime of war, no buts or ifs. Collateral damage is known to happen at wars, if you do not want your people to suffer from collateral damage then tell your protector not to shoot from your side and make them go for peace. Tell them not to brain wash the minds of your people into believing that enmity with Jews is eternal and absolute. I am not naive enough to believe that all Israelis are saints and that they do not make mistakes or some of the soldiers could commit some atrocities. I know though that they are held for their actions as far as the law permits. Tell me, however, don’t you consider Samir Quntar, the guy who killed a 2 years old girl by smashing her head with his rifle, a hero? You should be ashamed of this.
I can go for a long time arguing with each sentence of your comment since it is all based on brain washing propaganda pumped into your head and the heads of all Arabs day in and day out over the last decades. There is more to life than hate and war, you should find your way and contribute to life. You sound an intelligent person but your mind is being obscured with all this garbage being fed into the Arab minds.
There is no one I pity more than I pity deluded, brainwashed so-called Arabs (you evaded answering my question by going on a tirade about how there is nothing wrong with saying you are a human being first, as if I said there was anything wrong with it) who think they have the "holy" duty to preach us about how morally degenerate we have become. Your every attempt at sounding like you are not biased is more ridiculous than the previous one.

You and your kind love speaking in vague terms, not absolutes. They love speaking in such terms as "many people", "much proof", etc. without actually being able to produce the "many people" or the "much proof", even if their life depended on it.

I don't know where you get your knowledge of clerics, but the ones that I know of, and whose works I have read, and whose rulings I read on a daily basis, are not hateful as far as I know the definition of "hate." Your attempt at denouncing clerics shows that you cannot but have evil intentions behind your posts. Your attempt at making no distinction between Al-Qaida and Hezbullah, between vicious mass-murder and legitimate resistance, says a lot about your moral degeneracy. You are a degenerate, and if God forbid you happen to be of Arab or Muslim descent, you are a disgrace to the Arab and Muslim nation and civilization. But just so you know, traitors are not treated with respect, even by their new masters.

Amal and Hezbullah did not hack each other to death. We fought against those who were for a peace accord or upholding of status quo in the South with the "Israelis." We fight traitors just like we fight our enemies. We do not make exceptions based on what their race or alleged religion is, because a Muslim who betrays his Islamic values and people, can rightly be fought against when there is the need to.

You seem to know zilch about history, especially Islamic history, so I will now conclude that you are not even an Arab, or if you are, then you are one of those Christian Maronite traitors who have no sense of nationalism and no sense of loyalty to a country or a cause, just like the SLA traitors who should have been brought to justice by Hezbullah rather than released as a gesture to the Christians of South Lebanon (perhaps our over-generous treatment of these traitors will be taken as further proof by your highness of the hate that clerics spread!). You are a manipulator of the first degree.

Dirani was sleeping in his own bed in his own house in his own country when he was kidnapped (he was a civilian). Arad was captured in a helicopter while on a mission to bomb to smithereens innocent civilians in a country that he had no business being in. I should like to think that there is a difference between the two. But not for you, who manipulates and creates new standards only so that zionazis can come out of it with an untouched reputation.

More saints on the "Israeli" side, yes of course. Well, since you are such a fan of those who believe in the sacredness of all life and think that there are more saints on that side than on ours, why don't you go ahead and beg for them to take you in? Tell them you believe in the sacredness of life too, and that you think that there are more saints among them than among us, the murderous hoardes of Arabs who can't think of anything other than throw innocent Jews into the sea, and who are possessed by the hatred planted in them by clerics. By the way, why not also apply for a teaching job, to pass on to generations of saintly, innocent "Jews", your so-called knowledge of Islamic history and of the murderous hatred of so-called clerics. I am sure your course syllabus would include a special section on the self-proclaimed cleric none other than the heart throb of the Saudi-infested Sunni world, Osama Bin Laden.

Your careful wording when it comes to "shooting rockets at civilians" versus "shooting at civilians intentionally" is only further proof that you are an "Israeli", or at the very least (but not less appalling) an Arab agent of the zionazis. Your wording posits that you distinguish between what we do (offense, as per your characterization), and what the saintly zionazis do (defense). You also talk about collateral damage. I am beginning to wonder if you are not in fact an employee of the state of "Israel", who is given the job of going on blogs and dispelling the bad image that "Israel" has worldwide. Btw, this is no conspiracy, just check out the blogs launched by the "Israeli" government as per their announcements, and their equally-disgusting treatment of women (the Maxime magazine story) for the purpose of bettering the image of their racist, terrorist state which has been marred by their ethnic cleansing and genuine passion for mass-murder.

As for Samir Quntar, do open your own zionazi archives, to the year 1979, and read what the newspapers and officials said on the day Samir Quntar allegedly murdered that 4 year old girl. Do open those archives and do find out, that officials and witnesses both stated that the girl and her father were killed during a gunfight, and the gunshots that killed her came from none other than the guns of the "Israeli" police. I can even send you a copy of the pro-"israeli" Christian Maronite paper, Annahar, which carried the story from "Israeli" newspapers. No, there is only one person who should be ashamed of himself, and that person is you. For spreading propaganda and lies. Shame on you.

Shame on you for your racism (and self-hatred if you are indeed an Arab). Your terminology about the "Arab mind" is reminiscent of the crap spewed by the cretin pretend-be academics Martin Kramer, Bernard Lewis, & co. Your time is better spent trying to establish a fan club, or writing them letters of thanks for exonerating the saintly "Israelis" of crimes that "the Arabs were only asking for it."
Alghaliboon - why do you attack Ibraheem personally? Isn't he allowed to have an opinion? Just as nobody can force his opinion upon you - you must realize (and accept) that you can not force your opinions upon others. You know how many 'traitors' Israel would have by all the Israeli "human rights organizations" if that line of thought would prevail?

You blame Israel too much. It's OK to blame, but you shut your eyes for the part that those attacking Israel are playing. I think every reasonable person would understand that it TAKES TWO TO TANGO.

The Hizb is not an organization of angels. Just like no other humanly created organizations or countries are. People are bound to make mistakes, and hizbs are definitely NO EXCEPTION.
Dear Labayk:
First, I do not have the time to answer all your points in one go each day. I will answer 4 of your points each day only since I have business to take care of and a life to live.
Point 1: keep your pity to yourself labayk. I do not need it. I do not need you to think for me or tell me how I should think. I am a free person and I worked hard for my freedom and to be open minded. I know what to believe in. I know “what” my enemy is. I do not need you to define “my enemy” and nominate him for me. Your pity stems from your delusions that only you and your ideology know the truth. It gives you simple answers to complicated questions then the culture of the herd takes over to follow up on “this truth”. All the suffering you face because of this personal truth is understandable from your point of view since it is the “absolute” truth of God. It is easier for human beings to believe rather than to think out of the normal and be ingenious. I do not show symptoms of brain washing. I see those symptoms in what you vomit in words. Keep your pity to those 1200 people whom your leader took to death for the sake of one child murderer. Keep your pity to the families of those 1200 people who feel the pain of departing their beloved every day till the day they die, to the thousands who were injured or suffered permanent disabilities, to the children of those people who will live in hate till the day they die and maybe pass it to their off springs and coming generations. Keep your pity for the thousands of people who lost their homes and their businesses and who went all over the land suffering fear, humiliation and hunger. Tell me my proud Arab about how your fellow proud Arabs treated you and your people when this happened. Most of them were happy. My God and you want me to feel proud I have some Arab blood me??? Should I feel proud over this? Or over the Arab Arab wars in Lebanon? Or the Arab Persian war in Iraq? Or Arab – Arab war in Algeria? Or the Arab Arab war in Yemen? Or the Arab Arab war among Palestinians? To the end of the endless list. Do you want me to feel proud that Arabs nearly annihilated each other over a camel in history? (Albasous) or over a horse race? (Dahes & Alghabraa). Arabs used to invade, rob and rape each other before Islam and did it change since then? They just gave it a religious justification after Islam. My friend, Arabs have problem in their culture which is that they are still living in a tribal structure and civilization. Isn’t it the problem in Lebanon nowadays? Tribal wars and policies? Frankly I care less about racial pride. I do not feel pride or shame and I think those who think in such a way from any race just ignorant and lacking in human qualities. I am not evading answering your question about my race, I am mixed race and mixed religion and I love it. I think it was my ticket to open mindedness. My enemy is bigotry and human ignorance. I nominate my enemies as anyone who carries such ideology and uses it against me. What can I do about it or to fight it??? Simply by trying to improve my environment, bettering anything I touch, spreading compassion and love, talking out loud about thieves and criminals of the community, working for human rights and democracy.
Point 2: I repeat there is nothing wrong with saying I am a human being first. If you go by it you will understand the different other. You are not able to understand this statement my friend it takes lots of exposure and thinking to get to the core of it. It takes empathy and compassion. All humans are similar in their needs, fears, aspirations, emotions etc… they just express themselves in a different way. You are projecting your ideas when you say statements like: brainwashed so-called arabs, “holy” duty to preach us about how morally degenerate we have become and your. I do not have a holly duty just a duty towards my fellow humans and my compatriots or for my relatives to snap out from being blind sheep following what the chief sheep says and to show them where he is leading them to. It is not a holy duty, holiness is your trademark
Point 3: I am not biased in trying to understand the truth and to defining it in order to arrive at right conclusions and to arrive at peace. Most of the time I succeed in keeping my heart away but sometimes I fall into the trap of letting my emotions or lack of information define the situation in a kind of bias mood.
Point 4: I am not a propaganda man. It seems you are and it seems it is kind of a job or profession to you since you are doing the research or certain items I put in my answers and since you are using term related to propaganda profession and since you are have been trained in ideological background. Search to understand not to convince if you want to see the truth. Do you know that I do not like any politician in Lebanon and I think of them as Mafiosi, I do not think they are capable of building a state where as the individual is the source of legislation and center of interest. Lebanese politicians cannot think out of the tribal structure and culture. I used to say that your people are capable of building a state as near to a civilized community as it could get. I did not use to read people like you I just used to listen to your leaders over the TV. However, reading what you wrote I now have a gloomier picture of what dark future you would be taking the country to if you are allowed to be in power. What you are writing is evil. The worst part is that you do not realize it. I have to stop now. Don’t vomit all your ideological brain washed concepts all in one shot. Write only 4 concepts or 2 better then I can answer you.
PS: Tsedek don’t worry, i am a sensitive person but I can defend my position. Regarding the story about the 4 years old girl could you provide a link here to the archives to check out the story please.
Thank goodness Hezbollah supporters are despised and rejected by the majority of Lebanese,with Hezbollah considered as a terrorist organization by Canada,America,Australia,the Netherlands,Israel and others.The EU Parliament has labelled Hizbollah as a 'terrorist’ group in March 2005.(473 votes in favour,8 against and 33 abstentions )
Ibraheem I'm deeply ashamed, but. . . which story of a 4 year old girl? Did I mention this? Again, I'm very deeply ashamed...
"Ibrahim", I read your reply, but the fact that it is a load of hateful venom about the supposed backwardness of Arabs, about our alleged rapist nature, about our alleged murderous behavior throughout the ages, and generally our being good-for-nothing, makes me wonder if you were actually looking for a continuation of the discussion, or are solely interested in provoking me. Needless to say, your attempt at evading my question into your background (save for saying you are of mixed background, but not clarifying if that mixed background even includes some of our backwards, murderous, rapist Arab genes) is a clear indication of your intentions. By all means, you will be happier declaring yourself a "human being". But for someone who claims this, you do an awful lot of dehumanization of millions of people based on a non-existing "history" that you keep hallucinating and preaching about. And, at first you talked about how all life was sacred and implied that those who take a life are ignorant and hateful. But, I suppose, this sacredness does not apply to Arab life (since we are all rapist, murderous, venomous sheep), nor do your accusations of ignorance and hatred apply to those who take it away. This all fits perfectly into the rest of your posts, and your "thought-provoking" claim that there are more "saints" on the "Israeli" side than on our side. Well, certainly, do enjoy your saints.

You hateful, ignorant, murderous bastard. Don't talk to me about pity for the 1200 people who were killed last summer, or about their families and the pain they feel. You have NO idea. NO idea. I will not elaborate any further on this, because you are not even worthy of hearing any explanation I might offer. Suffice to say, you revel in their deaths, sanctify their murderers, and utilize the pain to drive home a "point" that exists only in the miserable, sick mind of yours. You are sick, to every inch of your miserable existance. You are inhumane and cruel. Sure, you can go on glorifying the murderous zionazis, after all, they gave your likes an argument that has been unprecedented in human history save for any conflict the "Israelis" are involved in: blaming the victim and their leaders, while exonerating those who indiscriminately dropped tons of bombs, choosing to kill 1200 people (including a few hundred children) to avenge the possible future release of an alleged "child-murderer". And not just the 1200 Lebanese, but also the hundreds of "Israelis" that the zionazi state was willing to put on its sacrificial altar, all for the sake of preserving its harmed ego. And your hateful self sees nothing wrong in this. You see such behavior as quite normal. But let me annoy you a bit: that "child-murderer" will walk to freedom just like Dirani and Obeid and others did. Because freedom and truth eventually prevail over lies and distortions and crimes. And nothing is without a price. We did not set the price, but we did set (and will successfully achieve) the outcome. You can go and busy yourself now asking questions about "what went wrong" that "Israel" failed in every respect. You might start wondering if indeed MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, which is the motto of your beloved zioNAZI heroes. Let me know when you come up with an answer to that, because if might does make right, then the Holocaust itself would be deemed right. Or would we need a whole different set of standards for that?

And as for the archives, I cannot provide a link because the link to Annahar requires that you have paid access to the archives. And as for the zionazi papers, since you are in "Israel" you can go and check out their archives in person. If you're not in "Israel" it's not a problem either, you can just tell them you think they are saints, they just might actually start thinking about giving you a visitor's visa. Either way, enjoy the OCCUPATION, be sure to block out from your mind the suffering of the murderous, rapist Arabs which we bring upon ourselves and often even beg for.
Dear Labayk:
The “load of hateful venom” you talked about were and are facts. Highlighting facts is not venom the facts itself are horrifying. Arabs killed and are willing to kill each other by the thousands, this is a horrifying fact and not venom words spoken by me. Do not blame me for highlighting horrible facts you should aim your anger at this culture which have major disrespect for human life and which treats its people like dispensable units for the “cause”. I did not create this culture, I am just highlighting facts that you chose to ignore. Do not blame me for highlighting the fact that a million person died in Iraq –Iran war, 350,000 in Algerian civil war, 100,000 in Palestinians – Lebanese wars to the rest of the list in Jordan, Syria, Yemen, massacres in Darfour, massacres in Iraq, wars among Palestinians, etc etc etc… This is not venom, these are facts. I did not invent these facts. Do not blame me for God’s sake just try to understand what the hell is wrong with Arabs? Denial does not lead you to find solutions. These are facts and if you acknowledge it then you will start trying to look for solutions to this cultural trap. It is not something Genetic it is something related to social structure, to values, to political system etc…
Why do you insist on my background? I told you I am mixed in race and religion isn’t it enough? I descend from Muslims and Jews from Arabs and Hebrews so what extra value or knowledge does this add to our discussion. Lebanese usually look for the religious identity of a person so as to stereotype him. The next question of a Lebanese usually is what sect of Muslims are you from? Don’t ask this because I will not answer it. May be you expected me to be Christian so that you would say: “here you go that is why he hates us”. You should realize something I do not hate Arabs Labayk, it is just that I have seen enough of Arab policies actions, tribal wars, unnecessary killing, and pattern or hypocrite behavior in a way that I just do not like it and I can see that their pattern of behavior is disrespectful to human life, theirs first and to everyone else second. I do not enjoy living among people continuously seeking tribal wars. There is more to life than killing, fighting over material things and living in continuous stupid wars. Arabs just do this, be it across countries or in same country. Arabs are racists against each other and disrespectful to the lives of each other. This is not venom, this is a fact.
As for dehumanizing millions of Arabs, don’t be silly. Arabs are as humans as the rest of the Universe. You should have had enough intelligence and education to tell me that this pattern of behavior was practiced by millions of other humans all over the universe across history. Like World War 2 where as more than 50 million were killed in the war or by the middle ages wars in Europe which nearly wiped out Europe. Arabs are just in this stage of their history where they should evolve into something better like what the Europeans evolved into for example. Trouble is your bigotry and arrogance is preventing Arabs like you to realize this fact and you just want to stick to fundamentalism as a cure for your current status. You have this delusion that all was well during early days of Islam, that Islam has cure to everything and it is a magic that have solution to anything and everything. You are going reverse on the road of civilization. In a way you were right, I should be careful not to fall into the trap of dehumanizing Arabs due to my dislike for their current performance or status. Arabs have tried Nationalism which failed and now they want to try Islamic Fundamentalism. My God you just succeeded in replicating history and Sunni Shia conflicts. Democracy, human rights, sacredness of life and science is the right way anything else is a delusion. Islam was never successful politically why do you want to repeat mistakes of history? No one succeeded in mixing state and religion why do you want to reinvent the wheel? Do not ignore all the knowledge that humans accumulated over centuries and try something proven wrong.
For another dose of my “venom”. I am joking of course. First, I am not hateful, not totally ignorant, and not murderous bastard. Don’t tell me I have no idea about the feelings. I wept for those children who got killed in Qana and for every child and woman who died or even felt pain. I felt the pain and suffering of the hundreds of thousands of refugees who left their homes and were subjected to all sort of agony or humiliation even at the hands of their compatriots. Though many compatriots were noble with them but still less more was hateful (typical Arabs). Do not tell me I have no idea, you are so wrong. I have big idea. You can tell your feelings and explanations and you will find us listening. It is ok to show your other side of what you feel. You are only showing us the angry, harsh, cruel and strong side. This is making you and your people look like you are demons and an enemy that should be destroyed rather than displaying yourself as human as the rest of the Universe with same fears and aspirations. Take off your War shield and the harsh – cruel mask we are all humans and we are all lost in our minds, traditions, beliefs, habits, social pressures, politician’s egos or plots etc… Frankly you will find Jews the most compassionate and peace loving people among humans. You will meet many like you with harsh masks and heavy armor but you will find many more willing to communicate and address each other’s concerns. Tsedek here is one of the best though I think that he or she is too trusting of Arab nature. I ask you one favor though, please go easy on the name calling issue and definitely don’t say zionazi it hurts feelings more than you could imagine. Not all people ignore the insults and go for the core.
Final point, Samir Kuntar did : first kill the father of the 4 years girl infront of his daughter then went on and smashed her head with his AK. The brother of the 4 years girl got suffocated by his mother in her hiding trying to keep the child quiet by putting her hand on his face. You feel shame if this happened and you like to think of Samir Kuntar as an honorable hero worthy of your efforts and your sacrifices to free him. Go to Google and enter Samir Kuntar you will find the many stories.
Enough for today, Bass khalas as shaabolla says
You know, and I know, and everyone else reading this "discussion" knows, that you are just hiding behind words. Big words, but hollow words. With no truth behind them. These "facts" that you refer to are not "facts", they are your own personal conclusions based on a narrow and racist world view. You slam Arab "culture", and expect me not to call you racist. You are just like those racist whites who claim that blacks/Africans are backwards and their culture is one of war and massacres nothing more. I have heard a lot of that. In fact, the colonialist projects of the past two-three centuries made extensive use of this same argument to justify occupation, massacres, and European supremacism, in the name of educating/civilizing/enlightening those "uncivilized, tribal, backwards people of Asia." The Europeans weren't the first (Ottoman Empire is another case of colonialism/imperialism, for example), and they certainly weren't the last. Today the racist white trash are continuing in their own tradition of exporting their wars to other continents and countries. You got it all wrong; the reason is not Arab tribalism or Arab thirst for killing one another. The problem is that, us "fundamentalists" are too soft on the traitors. We haven't learned an important lesson, that a traitor will always be a traitor, even if shown mercy. He will always be looking for a new master, stabbing the old one in the back.

Europeans and Americans kill millions of their own and millions of other peoples, and they are called "civilized." An Arab kills some Arabs, usually it's actually a puppet leader and his cronies loyal to the same "civilized" Europeans and Americans of yours, and all Arabs are uncivilized, and Arab culture is a load of crap. And then you have the audacity to call these "facts"?

Islam was never successful politically? Are you for real? This proves to me that you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. Oh, and as for your "tribalism" and "civlizational" crap, and your misrepresentations of Islamic history, Islam brought about enlightenment and many scientific discoveries were made by Arab and other Muslim scholars, long before any "civilized" European had done. And we work hard to keep in the same path, even though as you can see, our enemies do not want us to develop with our own abilities and knowledge, technologies that would at least create some balance in international relations. We might be guilty of many things, but we are most certainly not guilty of holding a noose over the heads of other nations like the zionazis do with the Americans and Europeans, and like the Americans and Europeans do with us. So let's call a spade a spade.

And as for the term "zionazi", I realize it ticks off some people. It might be shocking and disgusting, but it is very effective in driving home a point, and showing what I and many millions more (not just in the Arab/Muslim worlds) truly think of the zionists. And if the zionazis push it a little too far, be certain that the world will not be silent to their deceptions and crimes as it has been for the past 60+ years. And yeah, I still have some faith in the humanitarianism of the West, though for all I know, I might be just fooling myself.

As for your background, I wanted to know out of curiosity. So you are an Arab Jew and a zionist. Nothing I haven't seen before. It's sad that you are such a staunch defender of zionists though, because zionists have always been racist towards Arab Jews and looked down upon them. The reason the AshkheNAZI "Jews" brought in so many Arab Jews is not that there was any threat to their lives (there wasn't), but because they wanted to use them for cheap labor. Just read the statements of zionazi figures. By the way, I don't hate Jews, I hate zionazis (who are not Jews). I have even been to a Synagogue in Beirut and the cemeteries in Beirut and Saida (Sidon) and I have not done any damage to them like your civilized Europeans and Americans (and even zionazis these days) do to Synagogues and tombstones. It turns out that those murderous, tribal, uncivilized Arabs and Muslims have more respect for religion and the dead, than your civilized west. Not even the zionazis/"Israelis" respect the religion they claim they belong to, anymore.

By the way, about the Samir Quntar story, you got it wrong. I told you, the truth is there, if you are only willing to search for it rather than take for granted the zionazi lies and deceptions. The girl and her father were killed by "Israeli" police patrol during a gunfight. And as for the other kid, it was a girl not a boy, her name was Yael Haran. Well according to your logic and your arguments about who is responsible for the 1200 deaths last summer, then this woman and her government are the only ones to blame for it. You can't blame the victim of theft when he tries to take by force whatever has been stolen from him, after all peaceful methods have failed. What was this family doing in Palestine anyway? They could have lived in the midst of "civilized" Europeans, since they claim they are "civilized" and we are murderous, uncivilized, uncultured monsters. And if not, then according tot your logic, they are the only ones to be blamed. Or are zionazis exempt from such ruling and are instead to be judged with a new set of standards designed especially for them?

My "angry, harsh, cruel" side is making me and my people look like demons and an enemy worth destroying? You are right, because only zionazis have the right to react to their historical suffering by destroying (or trying to destroy) their real (or imaginary) enemies. Only Jews have suffered on this planet, and really, Arab suffering, even if you admit to it, is nothing close to what the Jews have suffered for millenia. Oh I see. Now we are asked to make quality judgments about suffering. Well, actually, I wish someone cared enough to actually assess the suffering of the "other" side, at least then they would be admitting that there IS suffering and pain on our side, even if they would not consider it just as legitimate as the alleged "Jewish" suffering at our hands (I guess we are now guilty of the Holocaust that your civilized Europeans committed). Your statement is an admission of the double standards and racism of the west (which includes zionazis, because the zionazis do not belong to/in the Middle East). The Jews are good and the victimized by default. Arabs and Muslims are guilty of being monsters until they are proven innocent, and are never victims until they are proven to be so (which no one cares to prove). So spare me all this talk about how you know and how you feel. Like I said, you have NO idea. You might THINK you have an idea and a good one at that, but your every word and every argument shows how unknowledgeable and ignorant you are about what you claim to have knowledge of.

The whole world claims to have shed tears seeing the victims of the zionazis last summer. Spare those tears for the "Jews." We don't need your tears or your sympathy. You know what your problem is? The only sympathy you are willing to give us Arabs/Muslims is for our dead, and even then, with much reservations. It is not much different from (though it appears nobler than) saying that the only good Arab/Muslim is a dead Arab/Muslim. So spare your feelings for those who are more "worthy" of them.
Dear Labayk:
I do not know that I am hiding behind big hollow words. I thought I was speaking words of wisdom, peace, compassion, compromise, honesty, and honor. You do not know what I meant; your bigotry is preventing you from relating to my words. Your teaching that “Jews are treacherous and devious” is making you refuse to communicate with me at a humanistic level. You are not listening to my words you are listening to your ideological teaching. You are just speaking parrot talk of what you have been taught about Jews. Or/and Zionists. Not everybody reading this discussion will agree with you or with me. Each person will read it from his or her own angle, culture, education, ideology etc… So, I am imagining all this death and killing amongst Arabs and I am imagining all the scheming and plotting happening right now under my eyes. If it wasn’t a tribal issue how could anybody get between Arabs? They are getting between Arabs because they are tribal without common unifying culture. I am not justifying anything for anybody I am just stating facts. None of your words justifies the situation. I am defining the situation giving my own opinion behind my observation; you are just denying the situation as existing. Remember the saying: “The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye, the more light you shed on it the more it contracts”.
I cannot address Europeans and Americans here it is irrelevant to my purpose and I do not want to lose focus of my main point. My main point is peace between Jews and Lebanese Arabs adjacent to Israel. You do not need the enmity of Israel and it is totally unnecessary. Well, to tell you the truth it has been partially used by your people because it was easier to be at enmity with Israel rather than with Palestinians and rest of Arabs otherwise you would have been called the guardians of the borders for Israel as you are currently called by the other Arabs and Muslim Extremists. However, your leaders have taken enmity to Israel to levels which could not be tolerated and could lead to major sufferings. Any how this is another issue.
Islam was never successful politically. After Death of Prophet, the first Calif died naturally but the other 3 died by assassinations. Islam could not rotate or manage the rule peacefully. Islam failed to do so because it is not a political system, it is only a bunch of wishful thinking politically. Furthermore, most Muslims sided with the grandson of the man whom “prophet” fought over power and killed the grandchild of the “Prophet” himself. After that Islam did not rule but Dynasties ruled. Islam failed to create a good citizen or a good social system but rather created a good system which created best of soldiers ready to die for “Islam”. In fact they created a soldier ready to die for the ruling king to further his conquests all in the name of serving “Islam”. Even Salaadin idolized by most Muslims killed from your people more than the others did and destroyed the Fattimiyin dynasty. Even Mamlouks killed more of your people and destroyed their rule on parts of Lebanon. So what do you mean when you were speaking about politically successful Islam? You are just repeating in a parrot’s way empty glory for Islam politically. Conquests do not create greatness otherwise Hitler and Jenkizkhan and the Mongols invaders would be called great. So, I proved to you that I do not go for empty crust. I measure my words precisely.
There are lots of points to answer you dear but I will answer only selected few since I have to go. Jews did not come from outer space. Israel did not import Arab Jews. Arab Jews got dislocated from most of the Arab countries that they were in. They did not, as Arab Nationalists claim, immigrate by choice. Arabs in various Arab countries performed atrocities and persecuted Jews so as for them to leave. In the 40’s about 950,000 Jews left the Arab countries where as 650,000 Arabs left what the British called “Palestine” so who got hurt more? Those jews became good citizens of Israel and the world and ceased to be refugees since then but the Arab refugees became 4 millions refugees and still refugees. Who is to blame? If in the 40’s there were 60 million Arabs and 1 million Jews in Arabia and if we consider the Arab – Israeli conflict a form of Civil War wouldn’t Jews be entitled for 1/60 of Arab land? If you want to be fair.
The Synagogue you are talking about was used during Lebanese Civil War as an Infirmary bearing the name of one Iranian and it is currently out of commission and destroyed. May be as a good gesture or as a form of rental payment for all the years of use you can tell someone to fix the Synagogue. The Cemetery you are talking about got its walls destroyed last year and some of the tombs vandalized. Someone put picture of Nasrallah on the Door of the Cemetery too. I think it was removed recently. You do not have to invent puritan status for anyone. We are all humans and we all err.
Words reflect our souls. Same like your words can not hide your anger and, excuse me, your hate, my words cannot hide my wish for peace, love and compassion among all of us. Invitation is open at all times.
Bass Khalas
Oh please, not the accusations of anti-Semitism again. Your attempt at conflating two otherwise unrelated things, namely zionism and Judaism, shows how desperate you are; you want to delegitimize my arguments because you cannot respond to them.

The existence and prevalence of treason and plotting (and I must add, puppetry) means that a society is tribal? Excuse me, but can you please start making more sense and not manipulating concepts and theories to fit your desired outcome/conclusion? Treason and plotting and killing members of one's own nation (what most people call a civil war) have existed for centuries and continue to exist in many parts of the world, including nations that are, in your books, nowhere close to being tribal. Does civil war necessarily mean that a nation is a failed one? That there is no common/unifying culture?

Yes of course you would not want to focus on Europeans and Americans. Because doing so would shatter your entire argument. So you'd rather focus all your energies on bashing an entire culture and nation based on a hypothesis which if tested on other nations, would prove that Arab behavior is not an exception at all, but fits into the pattern of human behavior (regardless of nations and cultures) in general. But your argument is a cultural one. A bigoted one, that is. Going on the offensive and calling me a bigot would do you no good and would not, as you hope to achieve, deflect attention away from your bigotry.

Keep your philosophization about Islam to yourself. You talking about Islam is like me talking about Judaism and telling Jews what their religion really is and isn't. Not only is it disrespectful, but also utterly bigoted.

You are right, conquests do not create greatness. First, the spread of Islam was not a "conquest", otherwise you'd be seeing Arabs in India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. Second, the zionazi conquest and colonization of Palestine is in the process of becoming a textbook example of "conquests do not create greatness". And you proved nothing other than mentioning a few names, without even knowing their significance. But then, for someone who bases his judgment on what "any search" on google tells him, I am not surprised. After all, you think that knowledge and research begin and end at google.

Oh, and about Arab Jews, yes, absolutely correct, they did not emigrate by choice. They fled the zionazi wave of terror, just like the Iraqi Jews did. I am sure you are familiar with the phrase "hamiha haramiha."As for your childish argument about "who got hurt more", millions of Europeans died in WWII, including hundreds of thousands brutally and deliberately massacred by the Allies at Dresden, as well as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and yet, all we hear about is the 6 million Jews. Who got hurt more? Do bigger numbers shift the blame away from those responsible for the course of history??

And as usual, you blame the victims. So Palestinians remained refugees but Jews did not (because they were given - stolen - land which they often did not even own in their home countries) and that is further proof of how the Jews are civilized and Arabs are not, right? Zionazis steal land, steal billions of dinars, equivalent to 1/3rds of the Iraqi treasury, and then bring a few hundred thousand Jews for their menial labor needs (revise for example what was said by Ben Gurion about North African Jews. He called them savages), and this means that the Jews can make "the desert bloom". WOW!! How about they get ready to make Birobidzhan bloom? Or maybe Uganda. What is the matter, I thought the people who are a light onto the nations would be accepted with open arms as settlers on any land and in any country. Don't mind us ungrateful Arabs. We really do not know the civilizational worth of Jews. Sorry. Go on, try your luck elsewhere, then. You wouldn't want to risk having your daughters marrying into our genetic cesspool.

The Jews are entitled to whatever land they owned. Period. Not one inch more, not one inch less. Theft is unfair. Period.

The Synagogue I am talking about was never used as an infirmary (during the zionazi invasion of Lebanon and siege of Beirut, and for quite some time afterwards, Jews and Shi'ite refugees took refuge in the Synagogue together -- this did not prevent the zionazis from bombing the Synagogue). Where on earth do you get your information from? You must have some wild imagination, or otherwise you are just sick and crave for attention, and realize that you will only get it when you portray your people as always being victims, never the aggressors. I have visited the Synagogue (in Wadi Abu Jmil) many times, I mean I have entered it rather than just seen it from the outside, and there is some Hebrew graffitti in there, and the Stars of David are still there, even though the place is quite a mess (thanks to the zionazi bombs that targeted the Synagogue). The place is now locked but there are new plans to renovate the Synagogue. Funny you talk about things that have never happened. The cemetery was never vandalized. The cemetery in Sidon was cleaned up some time back and the one in Sodeco is in the process of cleaning up, and the outside walls of the cemetery, which is next to Christian cemeteries, are brand new and shiny, and there is even a Hebrew inscription at the gate. There is a Shi'ite family living in a small building in the cemetery, and they take care of the cemetery to the best of their abilities. I was not painting anyone as saints. Allow me to remind you that you were the one who went into the whole saintly business, not I. Surely we all do make mistakes, but how does this mean that your lies and deceptions are to be taken to be true by default? Again, present to me some proof about the vandalism that has taken place, as you claim. I have heard no such thing. There are also a couple of other Synagogues around Lebanon, btw. One of them is in Deir el Qamar. There are also many Jews in Bhamdoun, which used to be a popular summer vacation place for many Lebanese Jews. And the Talmud Torah school was destroyed. You know by whom? By the bulldozers of the usurper/thief with whose legacy (and son) "Israel" is in love with these days (birds of a feather flock together).

Bigotry, however calmly it is expressed, is not a call for peace.
Dear Labayk:

I do not see any argument in all that you have written. I see childish names calling, cut and paste of anti Zionism rhetoric, cut and paste of parrot talk ideology, self proclaimed puritan identity and a claim of knowledge about absolute truth. I see, too, projection of bigotry, rejection of invitation to know and understand each other, demonizing of all different others, a self proclaimed right to think for all others whether different or in same community etc… you are not putting an argument. You are flooding your comment with all those cut and paste sentences with inability to communicate any intelligible idea except that your people are pure or your ideology is pure and all different others are demons and that we should all subdue to what you want us to think and believe in.
I was not philosophizing about Islam. I stated facts which you could not justify or refute. It was political facts and not religious facts. There is nothing sacred about analyzing history or ancient politics. You should separate religion from politics if you want Arab community to have a chance for advancement.
Read about how the Jews were forced out of their homes in Arab countries and how many were killed before they decided to flee for their lives. Or how some governments made Palestinian refugees live in the homes fled by Jews in Jewish neighborhoods and what did this mean socially? Mostly, try reading about the 2 years old Fatwa in Iraq's Mosques that any Jew coming to Iraq to claim his property is Halal to be killed. I do not want to debate more on this issue I just put it to show you that Jews did exist, did not leave by choice and are being prevented from claiming their property. Don’t' tell me Jews stole…. This issue is closed to me.
Go down town and check the writing on the Synagogue's wall. It bears the name of "Infirmary of Martyr Mostafa Shomran". Isn't it a good enough proof to you? And silly, the wall of the Cemetery is new because it was rebuilt after it was destroyed and vandalized. Peek a look over the fence and tell me if you can see the tomb stones vandalized or not? Look at the water fountain in front and tell me if it still has garbage in it or not? The picture on the door might be removed or painted I am not sure. There is a longer list but I prefer not to continue on this issue. This issue is closed to me.
You sound as being involved with Hizb to know all this information over a short notice. You are one of Hizb's propaganda personnel. Just calm down, relax, check out your illogic, put peace in front of your eyes then communicate with the guys here or there. We, all Middle Easterners, do not need propaganda any more we need to seek peace for every body. Your people do not need enmity of Israel, you have enough enemy to face and they are all encouraging and nagging Israel to destroy you once and for all. Your people need jobs, peace, and prosperity, to be happy and to enjoy life. Definitely they do not need to wait for Gudu. I prey to God that my message could penetrate the thick wall you have wrapped your soul with, you have the chance to connect with the different others to address each other's concerns rather than carrying out a propaganda campaign thickening the wall around your soul.
I know I will not penetrate your wall since you are at this position in life where you just use your intelligence to rationalize your beliefs rather than to understand. I am using my intelligence in 3 things. First, I am aiming to make you see that Arabs are not the absolute morally right side of the conflict. Second, I am trying to explain to you that for Arab communities to prosper they need to understand the natural law of things and to believe in human rights, in science, in civilization structure and values. They need to stop blaming others for their misfortunes. Third, I am trying to show you that peace is possible, peace is a necessity and peace is one click away if you leave regional politics out of the play. I can not say anything more. I apologize for the antagonist approach aimed at making you question your rigid ideology.
Oh, nice try again, evading replying to the points I raised by accusing me of evading yours.

While I put under scrutiny and critique your usage of terminology, you come back with the same repetitive statements about how I parrot, how I cut and paste, etc. Each and every one of your replies repeats the same hateful vomit and venom as the previous one.

I did not for once claim that my people are "pure." I claimed that people are people, and Arabs do not differ in any way from the rest of the people, unlike what you are arguing, that we are an exceptional case of monstrosity and tribalism.

Correction: You did not state "facts" about Islam.
Another correction: I DID NOT, rather than "could not" refute them. Responding to you about Islam is like responding to a neo-Nazi Holocaust-denier about the Holocaust. I will not reward your ignorance nor your viscious deceptive nature by engaging in a debate on something whose basic facts you have distorted from the get-go. Nice try playing the role of the witness, the lawyer, and the judge. You create lies then demand that I respond to them. When I don't, not because I can't, but because they are designed specifically to defame ISLAM and therefore I cannot but play a role in your agenda of propagating them (by opening a debate about historical facts that are settled - much like the Holocaust), you come to me with a "ruling", that I "could not" refute them. Well genius, I hate to break it to you, but not giving you the chance to legitimize your distortions by becoming a willing participant in a debate about it, the "it" being MY RELIGION - you disrespecful piece of shit - in no way legitimizes your points. You are a manipulator to the highest degree.

But since you find nothing wrong in "analyzing" history, I presume you fully support President Ahmadinejad's proposal for freely analyzing and testing the claims of Holocaust.

Yes, the issue of Arab Jews being terrorized into leaving their homes is "closed" to you. I think, by your logic, it means you could not refute my points. Oh btw, I did not tell you JEWS stole. Quit putting words into my mouth in an attempt to "prove" I am an anti-Semite. I said ZIONAZIS stole. And by the way, the money that the zionazis stole from the Arab states' treasuries, chief among them Iraq, not one cent of it was given to the Arab Jews. Food for thought about how much your zionazi ideologues and "founding fathers" of your saintly state love Arab Jews (who, I presume, by their Jewishness, would have defeated the animalistic, murderous urges of the uncivilized, monstrous Arab in their genes or culture). Yes, the Jews are being prevented from claiming their property. They should start doing so ASAP. I mean, claiming their property from the zionazi state that usurped millions from their home countries' treasuries. ALL documented. Nothing stays a secret forever. For every lie, there is a truth behind it.

About the so-called writing about the "Martyr Mostafa Shomran", are you out of your mind? Completely? I have gone into, and all the way around the Synagogue, and have never seen such a statement. Even in pictures from the early 90s after the civil war ended there is no indication of such a statement, nor in fact in pictures of the Synaoguge during the war. I am curious as to where you heard this laughable rumor. If you saw it yourself, I presume you made some pics of it that you would like to use to prove once and for all that this is the case?

Oh oh, so now, anything that does not bear signs of vandalism, it is because it was painted anew after the act of vandalism. By the way, I have seen the cemetary entrance both before and after the renovation, and no, there was no vandalism, and the renovation itself was part of the rehabilitation of the entire street, especially that next to it new buildings have been built, and the French embassy is close by. The repainting of the wall was part of a big project to renovate the sidewalks and the walls of the cemeteries.

I already stated that the cemetery needs some cleaning to do. That is because the remaining Jews do not care enough to clean it up, and there is no one else who has the time to do it. People have other things to do than take care of the Jewish heritage that the Jews themselves have trashed by moving to "Israel." But as I said, some people are now trying to clean up the place without any pay, based on voluntary service. And no, for goodness' sake, I am not saying they are Hezbullah supporters, nor Muslims for that matter. Just people. So do not bring up the "puritan" nonsense again. Anyway, since this issue is now "closed" to you, I guess I'll have to assume that you could not refute my debunking of your lies.

It is none of your business whether I am involved in Hezbullah or not. Yes, I dare say I know a lot of things on "short notice." I dare say I even know more about "Israel" than most "Israelis", including all names of kibbutzim and towns, their locations, the Palestinian villages that they were built on top of, your entire leadership history, your zionazi ideology in writing, and much more. If that makes me a Hezbullah propagandist, I am "guilty" as charged.

I do not blame others for our misfortunes. I do not even blame our puppet "leaders" as much as I blame ourselves, our people, for not rising up against puppets and for not putting traitors in their right place, and instead going easy on them, even though we know that when the time comes they will stab us in the back again. I have said this before and I will say it again, the road to Al Quds passes through Mecca and Medina, and other Arab capitals. First we must liberate Mecca and Medina and then we will be halfway on the way to achieving our final victory against the zionazi occupiers. Imagine a world without zionists. That's when there will be true peace, and that's the only thing that will ensure that Arabs and Jews would co-exist just like they did for many centuries before the advent of the cancer called zionism.

I would not mind talking with you as long as you talk as a Jew not a zionist. I cannot talk and make friends with supporters of mass murderers, just like you couldn't have made friends with Nazis, neo-Nazis, and Holocaust deniers. It's time to realize that others are just as sensitive about their suffering and their enemies, as you are about yours.
One more thing, your claim that the renovation of the cemetery wall was due to the vandalism is laughable and shows that you have no clue how things work in Lebanon. Let us be honest for a second, you think that the Lebanese authorities (governmental or municipal level) would have really lost any sleep over anti-Semitic acts of vandalism? If you really think so, then you are really deluded. I can tell you many stories about hateful graffiti being sprayed on walls in much more obvious places than the wall of the Jewish cemetery, and how after months of complaints and lobbying, the municipal authorities did not care enough to send some painters to remove the graffiti, and property-owners had to pay from their own pockets to remove it, while the graffiti sprayed on public property remained as it was for many many years until there happened to be a renovation project which included the re-painting of walls.

Now you are saying that there was an act of vandalism, and there are no pictures taken in the period between the vandalism and the painting of the wall. Unless you are saying the wall was painted very promptly following the attack. Understand that this is a laughable claim.
One more thing, Lebanese Jews were really good friends with us Shi'ites, and Jewish doctors even treated many Shi'ites for free because many had just moved to the city from South Lebanon or the Beqa'a and were too poor to afford paying for the visit.

I would like to see the same kind of friendships one day, but unfortunately the racist, terrorist state of "Israel" continues to spread lies about how we hate Jews, when our issue is with zionists, whether they are "Jewish", "Christian", or even "Muslim". No real Jew, Christian, or Muslim can be a zionist, because all three religions are based on Justice and not murder and theft and dispossession and racism/apartheid.
check Beirut Municipality for the issue of the wall. I should give you a name there but i can not. And how were the Jewish doctors repaid? 9 or 12 kidnapped and killed. Check Archives. End of this issue with me. WE can discuss different things, just understand that hate does exist deep and you should not let it blind your eyes.
I don't need to check Beirut municipality because there never was such a story/case. But in any case if you have any "names", you can email it to me and I will do some 'research'.

Oh please, cut the crap. Again the victimization crap. Always the victimization crap. Always. You are one sick bastard, you know that? You will go to any and all lengths to spread your distortions and propaganda. What a sad head case you are. You should be ashamed of yourself for implying that those who were helped are those who did the killing. You are essentially advancing the racist canard of the "ungrateful Arab." And just as we were going somewhere with this discussion. Shame on you. You have no respect for the Jewish dead even, you would utilize their deaths to further your hateful goals.

You are one pathetic psycho who needs to get a lesson or two on respect. Respect for those whom you claim are your "own", and respect for the ones on "the other side", the ones that you claim to have wept for. Get a life.
Alghaliboon, why do you personally attack Ibraheem?
so the doctors and their friends,9 or 12, did get killed but not by those whom they hleped. Of course i know this. Those who were helped felt sorrow for the victims. Though thier leader, now speaker of the parlaiment said: "what the fuss all about they are only Jews". I am just using historical facts to show you that you are not morally absolutely right and to show you the need for peace to stop pain and sorrow on either sides. Do not cover the shame you feel with a crust of denial, claim of purity, names calling and my alleged intention of propaganda on my side. I am just ashamed I have used all this historical information. Absolutely end of discussion at this level on my side. Let us discuss new topic like how you can communicate with people for peace. For God's sake snap out from the defensive - Propaganda. Let us speak about something constructive.
Why is Hizbollah persecuting the Baha'is?

Why is Hizbollah persecuting the Baha'is?

Well that's a new one. I did not know there were Baha'is in Lebanon. I guess zioNAZI desperation has reached new highs.

Speaking of persecution, Baha'is are "persecuted", but Palestinians are "defended against". Of course. Because the Arabs and Muslims are always the persecutors, the "Jews" always the victims. There goes the victim talk again.

"Ibrahim", Berri said no such thing. Again, distortions and propaganda which is not even backed up by a link. By the way, during the civil war, 150,000 were killed, a great many of them by the zioNAZIs, and all you find is a few Jews who were killed by some people for whatever reason it was. Oh yes, Jews suffer the most. Even when hundreds of thousands of Muslims were massacred, that is not really the point, that is "closed" to you I guess. We can only talk about Jewish suffering, about a couple of Jews killed among 150,000 dead. What's a couple of Jews killed? Everything. All that matters. The victimization talk again. Always the victims. Always. The rest don't matter. The matter is "closed". Let's talk about something else if we're not gonna talk about Jewish victimization. Oh yes.

You are one pathetic attention whore. I'm done with this "discussion" which turned out to be a waste of time. Let me know when you snap out of the "Jews are always the victims and the whole world should only talk about their suffering round the clock." You know where to find me.
By the way, during the civil war, 150,000 were killed, a great many of them by the zioN

can you back this up with proof?
"Jews are always the victims and the whole world should only talk about their suffering round the clock."

That is pretty much a mirror-effected of the 'arabs-are-suffering-and-eternal-victim" image presented all around the world by them.
can you back this up with proof?

No, there is "no" proof when it comes to the body bags that "Israeli" occupation and destruction fills. Of course not. I presume this issue is "closed" for you. And nothing matters, not body counts, not the torture and killing methods used at Ansar or Khiam, not the proven deliberate massacres (videos don't lie, even if Arabs do, right?), nothing. And only when it comes to "Jews" should there be reliance on eyewitness and survivor accounts. Only in the case of "Jewish" victimization should there be no digging up of facts about what really happened, because "it's a fact that it happened the way it did."
The death toll from the zioNAZI siege and bombardment of West Beirut in 1982 alone exceeded 50,000 civilian deaths according to various sources, including Lebanese Red Cross and the Palestinian Red Crescent.
This does not even include the even higher death toll in South Lebanon (and the tens of thousands of Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians who were taken away by the "Israelis" to Ansar camp, never to be seen again), much of which was turned into barren land by the same people who "make the desert bloom."
And only when it comes to "Jews" should there be reliance on eyewitness and survivor accounts.

Stop getting so angry at 'jews' ;-) It is only the natural defense to come with the request of proof because of the demonisation propaganda towards Israel -

You would find it natural one doesn't defend himself from that?
You are doing exactly the same thing: from the 'other side' of the scale.
The death toll from the zioNAZI siege and bombardment of West Beirut in 1982 alone exceeded 50,000 civilian deaths according to various sources, including Lebanese Red Cross and the Palestinian Red Crescent.

I have NEVER heard this, from not one source. So, if possible, give me the link, because that would be serious stuff (considering that the whole 60+ year "conflict" up until now has taken 60,000 victims life -of all sides- as is agreed upon by all sides as well).
This does not even include the even higher death toll in South Lebanon (and the tens of thousands of Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians who were taken away by the "Israelis" to Ansar camp, never to be seen again)

Sweetie, you KNOW it takes more than just stating it for it to be true and believed. Tens of thousands? I think you are thinking of Syria and taking Lebanese 'prisoners' -
In the early days of July 1982, when access to most of the bombarded areas was difficult and recovery efforts and announcements of numbers were hampered and censored, Lebanese police announced that more than 10,134 Lebanese and Palestinians had been killed by "Israeli" bombardment, and at least 17,337 were severely wounded. Caritas, a Catholic relief agency put the number higher, at 14,000. As time passed, in mid-July, the numbers rose even higher as workers on the ground recovered more and more bodies. The estimated death toll rose to 20,000.

"Israeli" officials hastened in early July to insist that the final death toll was a total of 231 Lebanese and Palestinians in ALL of Lebanon...

European and American doctors and relief workers working throughout Lebanon who debunked the "Israeli" laughable claims of some 200 casualties, were immediately accused by "Israel" of either anti-Semitism, or of belonging to "European terrorist organizations".

The Ain el Helweh camp in South Lebanon was entirely leveled over the heads of thousands of Palestinian civilians. A Canadian doctor who entered the place after the flattening, put the death toll in the thousands. The same happened in Bourj el Shamali camp, which was also leveled on the heads of its inhabitants, and relief workers were not allowed to enter the camp by "Israeli" forces. Nevertheless, the stench of dead and rotten corpses could be smelled kilometers away from the camp.

In Sidon, western journalists discovered dozens of mass graves and scores of unburied corpses.

In Beirut the raids continued, and on July 12, "Israeli" forces fired at least 10,000 shells on residential buildings. In only a single air raid, 82 civilians were killed. In another air raid the following day, 209 civilians were killed. Hospitals issued names and addresses of all victims, and journalists had access to these lists as well as the dead bodies. On July 27 and 28, "Israel" bombarded Beirut continuously for 30 hours.

Between 30 and 50% of all the Lebanese and Palestinian wounded in the 1982 invasion succumbed to their wounds.

400,000 people were left totally homeless by "Israeli" bombardments.

Even after battles were over in Palestinian camps, "Israelis" sent bulldozers to knock down any and all houses that had remained standing after the invasion.

On August 1, 1982, "Israel" fired 185,000 missiles, which amounts to an average of 3 per second, and flew 300 sorties in 14 hours alone.

On August 4, the bombardment was even more severe and encompassed virtually all of West Beirut. The day's death toll was placed by Lebanese officials at more than 800 killed. Fire stations and even hospitals and hotels were bombed.
It is only the natural defense to come with the request of proof because of the demonisation propaganda towards Israel -
So that means that the vicious demonization propaganda towards Germany, not to mention the zioNAZI milking -- since WWII -- of German treasury, would also require, that we give sufficient attention to what Holocaust deniers have to say. After all, in the face of zioNAZI demonization of Germans, it is only a "natural defense."

Another thing, I am not your "sweetie."

And one last thing, that you have not heard of it does not mean that it has never happened.

Journalists/reporters for The Washington Post, LA Times, ABC, CBS News, The Times, NY Times, Boston Globe, The Guardian

In addition: Caritas, Lebanese Red Cross, Lebanese police and various Lebanese officials, Palestinian Red Crescent, western aid/relief workers and doctors (names will be available upon request), Robert Fisk

All these sources, versus "Israeli" claims -- which were dubbed as "ridiculous" by various international aid agency directors and officials, that the total death toll stood at 231 Lebanese and Palestinian civilians.

You must be right. The whole world is anti-Semitic.

So, who REALLY is into conspirazoid crap?
Alghaliboon It'll take some time before I respond because obvously I want to get more background. It's not that I don't believe it up forehand, but I do have some doubts as to 'sources' having seen FIRST HAND how a 'massacre' was created into the world conscience while there was no massacre at all taking place one time (Jenin).
I am reading a book online (I never knew one could read a book online at amazon, very surprised) called "My war diary" by Dov Yermiya now and hopefully I will find some reliable information in it.
If you'd like to have a look at it as well, you can find it at:

5 months after the war was over, "Israel" still refused to let anyone enter the Ansar concentration camp, despite the fact that in an IDF publication, it was stated that "the camp is open to visiting journalists throughout the day and newsmen may interview detainees on camp grounds." A New York Times journalist, William Farrell tried to visit the camp but was denied access. More than half of the 15,000 prisoners were transported to prisons and camps in "Israel", never to be heard of again. After many pressures from ICRC and other agencies, and long after the war was over, some journalists were allowed to enter the camp. Mary Arias (Cambio, Dec. 20, 1982) reported the degrading conditions and electric torture and psychological and other physical experimentation.

By December 1982, there were virtually no Palestinian men between the ages of 16 and 60 to be seen in South Lebanon.

Prisoners who begged for water were instead given urine. During Sabbath celebrations, prisoners were selected for special punishment, while the "Israeli" audience of "pure of arms" soldiers, laughed at the screams of tortured prisoners.

In a French-language elementary school in Sidon, several hundred refugees were killed when "Israelis" bombed it.

Military authorities blocked the shipments of food and medical supplies to Sidon. A number of ships carrying desperately-needed aid were turned away. The stated reason was "they are all Arabs, and they all aided the terrorists in one way or another." It was also claimed that there were plenty of provisions in Arab houses -- the ones that were leveled to the ground, that is.

The top "Israeli" commander said: "It is better that 1000 Arabs should die and not one of our soldiers."

Palestinian prisoners were bound up, tortured, and guards continuously yelled at them "you are a nation of monkeys, you are terrorists, and we will break your heads: You want a state? Build it on the moon."
Another thing, I am not your "sweetie." fine.

Tsedek, you are a supporter of terrorists and mass-murderers, a Jewish neo-Nazi, if you really believe there was no massacre in Jenin, and that all Arab claims must be invetigated while all Jewish claims are a matter of "natural defense", or part of their history of victimization by the "goyim." Your pretensions about "seeing the other side" are finally becoming very clear for all. Don't think that your claims that you yearn for peace would stop people from seeing right through you, to the hatred and racism that you hold in your heart, which makes you spread all these lies and distortions, and deny that massacres and tragedies perpetrated by your people have ever happened.
alghaliboon, try to get rid of some of the hate that blinds you, that is my last advise to you. if you really believe in 'justice' i'm sure you will one time see that hate has not place in justice - none of the 99 names of Allah even hints at it. that must mean something.
don't let hate blind you... you start to talk things that don't make sense anymore except for someone sharing your hateful feelings.

don't let hate win from you...
Shatila and Bourj el Barajneh were targeted by non-stop 10-hour-long air air raids on August 12. Western reporters' descriptions of the raids coincided. One reporter said that the material uses in the air raids included bombs "never previous seen over such heavily residential districts, projectiles that streaked from the aircraft and exploded at 50 ft. intervals in the sky in clouds of smoke, apparently spraying smaller bombs in a wider arc around."

A Lebanese radio newscaster, while reporting on the raids, broke down, and screamed, "the Israelis are neo-Nazis and they are murdering our people."

It must be noted that the invasion of Lebanon was based on the argument that the PLO was bombarding northern "Israel" and must be uprooted. The reality is far from this. For over a year prior to the invasion, the PLO had maintained a full and complete ceasefire. The attempted assassination of an "Israeli" official by Abu Nidal, who was the sworn enemy of the PLO at the time, was used as an excuse to occupy and turn into barren land / desert(what "Israeli" do best) South Lebanon and much of the rest of the country.
For someone who goes by the name "tsedek", you have a lot to learn about what justice means and what it entails. Do not try to delegitimize all the documented sources that I have mentioned by referring to how my hatred has allegedly blinded me. You're the only one who is blind -- to the facts, and to the suffering of the "other side." You want me to admit that my side is guilty of crimes and bad acts, but when it comes to you, you put on a holier-than-thou attitude and claim that Jews could have done no such thing, and if there is talk about these things having been perpetrated by "Israelis", it's only because of Arab propaganda. You cite your denials as a "natural defense" against our alleged propaganda. And then you try to close off the whole discussion about "Israeli" mass murder by diverting it into a discussion of my personal feelings and hatreds. Well my personal hatreds are irrelevant to the facts that I have mentioned. And if you have a bone to pick with these facts, then go and deal with the sources that have reported it.
That is no use. You see black/white. One 'angel' and one 'devil'. I would google on the sources and go on with discussing. I am not afraid of admitting mistakes, evil or whatever committed allegedly by 'my side' - because the ONLY side I side with is with those that don't inflict harm upon innocent people. Including 'fighting' to uproot them. Comprenez?

And no, I am NOT 'holier than thou' - even when trying and believing to follow 'the truth' or 'justice' there are enough holes on which one stumbles and fall, without even consiciously wanting to inflict harm to others.

There is one thing I know though: I will NEVER EVER let anybody tell me how I should feel about other people: no politician, no clerk, nobody. I interact with people and come to my own conclusion (without judging, which I leave for the Only One that can do so).
Ah, and about Jenin: I KNOW there was no massacre. So you're trying to dump me into that 'evil neo-nazi' pit doesn't make one bit of impression on me: since that shows you WANT something to be true while I KNOW it isn't.
No Tsedek, there is a difference between KNOWING and THINKING / THINKING YOU KNOW. KNOWING means you have facts proving that there was no massacre. THINKING that an event never took place means you interpret that event in your own way based on whatever factors you may or may not perceive as important. You do NOT KNOW. You THINK. At best, you THINK YOU KNOW.
No, I KNOW and I don't want to say how I KNOW. That's my prerogative. anyway, it will come out soon AGAIN (after the UN had to hastily retreat his condemnation based on unverifyable 'statements' of Palestinian 'leaders' and recognize that from the 53 fallen Palestinians 33 were armed and fighting - and not with the most fair fighting discipline either, sending boys towards soldiers to tice them into a trap of boobytrapped homes - after which one fallen soldier's mother sighed "why did we have to take care for human lives, we should have bombed them" - and THAT, Alghaliboon, is where Israel is getting TOTALLY wrongly demonized for - for not 'going till the end' - in destructing their 'enemy' - (of which I approve of course, every life is a world so of course no randomly bombing lives) - but I wonder if your organization, would it be in the same position as Israel is today would adhere to these human qualities. (and don't start about 'demonizing arabs' you KNOW I don't do that, this has nothing to do with arabs, but with your organization that has lead you into the tunnel of darkness with the only 'light' the uninterrupted proclaiming how 'rightful' they are).
i forgot the link:

Soldier suing jenin, jenin filmmaker
No, I KNOW and I don't want to say how I KNOW.
Oh yes, how could I forget you would use this argument. My bad. Now this issue is "closed" to you, I guess.

So the investigation by forensic experts is not to be taken as proof of a massacre (btw, a massacre is not defined by the number of its casualties), but an IDF soldier suing Jenin, Jenin in an "Israeli" court is proof that there was no massacre. Being targeted by a law suit being taken as proof of guilt. Great. Now can I start suing "Israel" in Lebanese courts then, that would surely prove that "Israel" is guilty.

Keep amusing me. This is getting more and more amusing by the minute.
A massacre can take place in the midst of war and "legitimate" war actions. Legitimate targeting of enemies and massacre of civilians are not mutually exclusive.
Oh btw Tsedek you forgot to mention that Palestinian children were used as human shields in Jenin. They were forced to walk in front of "Israeli" soldiers and to go from door to door. How about that, huh? Hiding behind women and children. Sounds like there is more proof that zioNAZIs do it than there is proof that Palestinian fighters do it.
Also do tell us why "Israel" blocked the UN from investigating the "incursion." What was it trying to hide?
You know what's a massacre? The killing of 123 random civilians in the 3 months preceding the Jenin incursion: by terrorists coming out of that very same town, 'proudly' called 'the capital of terror' by surrounding alike thinking people.
Are you sure you are up for this debate Tsedek? As I said, you might THINK you know, but you don't really know. Are you sure you want to learn the real truth? Are you really ready for it? Or are you just going to waste my time and others' time with silly arguments and side-arguments that go in circles?
They were forced to walk in front of "Israeli" soldiers and to go from door to door. How about that, huh? Hiding behind women and children.
That's just as despicable as sending children towards the soldiers to entice them into walking into a boobytrapped home.

But - of course - in your 'factfinding mission these things didn't happen, because that would shatter the image of the 'angel-resistance', hmm?
Tsedek tsedek.... I thought we didn't have to go over the basics of logic.

A massacre against one group does not make a massacre against the opposing group a "non-massacre".

I thought you at least agreed with that one. I guess not.
Also do tell us why "Israel" blocked the UN from investigating the "incursion." What was it trying to hide?
Nothing. It had objections to WHO the UN wanted to send. They asked for a professional and the UN wanted to send a non-professional.

You actually believe there are massgraves of Jenin citizens burried there? If you believe so, why do you think they didn't yet 'victoriously' showed those to the 'world', hmm?
Well actually tsedek, the fact-finding mission was not allowed to investigate. The ones who did not allow it were not the Palestinians, but the "Israelis." Only after days, and a clean-up by "Israel" of the evidence of massacre, was a forensic expert able to make his way into the camp. The reasons cited for not allowing any investigators into the camp was that they would face "security threats" / threats to their lives. Since when do cold-blooded killers of Tom Hurndall, Rachel Corrie, James Miller, and other foreigners killed by the pure of arms freedom-fighters of yours, care about foreigners getting killed?
Are you sure you are up for this debate Tsedek? As I said, you might THINK you know, but you don't really know. Are you sure you want to learn the real truth? Are you really ready for it? Or are you just going to waste my time and others' time with silly arguments and side-arguments that go in circles?

You were in Jenin, you were everywhere 'things' happened... Of course algaliboon. You KNOW it all. No doubt in your head: you KNOW the real truth.

Did you know that people looking for the truth ALWAYS doubt at any version given to them? But you don't - you are right, only you - because ... well: just because.

Right :-(
Tsedek ya Tsedek, there being no mass graves does not mean there was no massacre. Please open a dictionary and look up the meaning of massacre. Quit this childish game of not knowing what a massacre is and isn't.

Actually, it was not about who the UN was going to send. It was not at all about that. See my previous post. "Israel" did not allow ANY investigators and experts to enter the camp for days after the massacre. Get your facts straight.
A massacre against one group does not make a massacre against the opposing group a "non-massacre".

To target a group of ARMED militants who has just performed a real massacre is NOT a massacre. If Israel would have bombed Jenin - that, Alghaliboon, could have turned into a massacre. As it is: 23 soldiers lost their lives for NOT committing a massacre.
You were in Jenin, you were everywhere 'things' happened...

No, and nor were you. But those whose family and children were massacred, were. And days later, so were experts, who saw the extent of zioNAZI crimes, the leveling of entire neighbourhoods over the heads of whoever might be inside -- be they fighters or civilians. The deliberate sniping of civilians. The use of human shields. The deliberate butchering of women and children. The torching of bodies. Tell me, have you seen pictures of the massacre, Tsedek? Are you sure your heart can bear it?
Tsedek, let me ask you something.

Do you believe what Holocaust survivors tell you?

Do you think that Ahmadinejad is right in calling for the removal of restrictions on the study of what happened during the Holocaust? Or even on whether there was a Holocaust to begin with?

Do you, by default, question the Holocaust "claims". If not, why not?

Just answer these questions for me will you.
Tsedek, and many hundreds more of your pure of arms freedom-fighters were killed in the invasion of Lebanon, which many argued (and many more still argue) was to liberate Lebanon from terrorists. That does not mean that the occupation of South Lebanon was not occupation, and that the massacres and atrocities committed by your army were not massacres/atrocities.
Tell me Tsedek, you really think that only 231 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed in 1982 invasion of Lebanon?
Only after days, and a clean-up by "Israel" of the evidence of massacre, was a forensic expert able to make his way into the camp

Wrong there were human rights organizations present in Jenin.

As I said, Israel didn't accept a non-professional to 'assess' - because of the fear of biased reporting. I think that's very fair considering that Israel is the only country with a huge trunk of 'UN condemnation" on her back while the whole world can go on murdering without their interference or one resolution preventing them.
Wrong there were human rights organizations present in Jenin.

They were allowed inside the camps after the massacre. ONLY DAYS after the massacre.

Who is a "non-professional"? A forensic expert who has had a life-long career in investigating such things, qualifies, I would like to think, as an "expert." No, Tsedek, this was not the reason, unless your definition of "expert" is "someone who would not, or would not be able to, expose the massacre just committed."

Tell me, Tsedek, was the UN anti-Semitic for having concluded, from the video captured by Norwegian peacekeepers, that the Qana massacre in 1996 was deliberate? This was "Israel's" argument. "Israel" even went as far as pointing out that the person who had written the report was a Dutch, and the Dutch were guilty of being silent complicits in the Holocaust. What a joke. You would be a joke yourself, tsedek, if you truly believe such trash.

For someone who claims not to assume anything, you do a lot of assumptions about how the entire world is biased against "Israel" by default.
Tell me, have you seen pictures of the massacre, Tsedek?

which massacre, alghaliboon? there was fighting. there were no children deliberately targeted. there were 'only' (still too much) 20 civilians victim, while 23 soldiers lost their live in a mission, that would, if it would really be a massacre, be easily solved by just bombing the neighborhood.

You are holding on to stories and mood-creation that has surrounded this story, based on rumors and are not willing to accept the truth.

here you'll find a photo of the 'entire neighborhoods that have been destroyed"

Jenin aerial photos
And again and again and again, the victimization argument. Always, for ever and ever, this victimization canard is used to buy "Israel" its way out of mass-murders and ethnic cleansing. Always the victims, huh?

Why don't you go and live on the moon then? Since you crave for peace so much, and since you think the whole world hates Jews no matter what they do, you should be actively seeking to colonize another planet. After all, you are such experts in making the desert bloom.
Please open a dictionary and look up the meaning of massacre. Quit this childish game of not knowing what a massacre is and isn't.

mas·sa·cre (ms-kr)
1. The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
2. The slaughter of a large number of animals.
3. Informal A severe defeat, as in a sports event.

and I am telling you there was NO instance of killing of a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly. the 20 people that found their death were (however disrespectful this sounds, there alas is no better word for it yet) "collateral damage" - MOST certainly seen against the light that 23 soldiers gave their lives in order to PREVENT massacring.
Yes tsedek, that massacre. The massacre that to this day haunts "Israel." The massacre you would like to claim never happened. The blowing of women's and children's heads off their necks and shoulders. THAT massacre. The shooting of kids in the head. The shooting of kids in the back and chest. But then, that must be a non-massacre for you. After all, for you, that is part of your daily share of lives you take.

And I don't know what your definition of neighborhood is. Maybe you could tell me how "Israelis" define a neighborhood. For me, those aerial photos show the destruction of more than one neighborhood. But even if it is only one neighborhood, that doesn't change the crux of the matter: that an entire neighborhood -- or a street, whatever -- was flattened to the ground by an army of bulldozers. With women, children, inside them in many cases.
And again and again and again, the victimization argument.

No. You mistake 'victimization argument' with looking at the facts. If facts say a certain event evolved as it did according to those facts, then that is NOT victimization, but learning the truth. You don't have to feel sorry for 'jews' - you just have to recognize that facts don't lie and a certain event was as it was. Nekudah.
Yes tsedek, that massacre. The massacre that to this day haunts "Israel." The massacre you would like to claim never happened. The blowing of women's and children's heads off their necks and shoulders. THAT massacre. The shooting of kids in the head. The shooting of kids in the back and chest. But then, that must be a non-massacre for you. After all, for you, that is part of your daily share of lives you take.

You are going on your rethoric cruise - this is where I knock off. You either discuss rationally with FACTS OR you go on complaining about the picture you have in your head how things evolved in jenin. Either way is OK by me, but I can not 'discuss' a fantasy. Sorry.
Oh yes, back to the drawing board.

Now it was collateral damage.

That surely always buys your way out of an argument, doesn't it?

OK, so the numbers were too little for it to be a massacre? And you claim it was not indiscriminate (but having collateral damage, especially when not using air force as you rightly pointed out, does indicate that there were indiscriminate acts of violence). You can choose to call it whatever you wish. That won't change the facts.

"and I am telling you there was NO instance of killing of a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly."

Then surely the indiscriminate targeting and killing (as numerous human rights agencies and even the UN has termed it) of 1200 civilians can be considered a massacre?

Oh, wait, sorry, that's collateral damage too. It was, after all, not "cruel", and given that the whole world is anti-Semitic and biased against "Israel", not indiscriminate either.

Sorry. I guess I can now "close" this issue myself.

One thing, tsedek: for someone who claims to have a conscience, you sure do blindly accept the explanations given by your army/government/country for the killing of tens, hundreds, and even thousands of civilians.

Dear Labayk:

Hi, we agreed to open a new page. A page of looking for trying to find ways to reach peace, and to further understanding between 2 different cultures and mentalities. You keep on bringing pieces from the past just to keep the enmity alive. I bring past just to show you that your people or Arabs are not pure innocent people who were absolutely victimized by the Jews. Just one more addition to your data to make my point that you are not victims only and that we all need to look for ways to achieve peace.My friend, which Sabra and Shatila are you talking about and which Borj? You know that Amal inflicted more damage on Sabra, Shatila and Bourj more than anybody else and that many Palestinians died at the hands of Amal. You know, too, that Tel Alzaatar camp was wiped out of the surface of the Earth by other Lebanese with the help of the Syrians. If you do not know then ask the relevant department in your organization and ask them for real information. If Jenin issue was a real massacre I dare you to list names of the dead refugees in Jenin along with their sex and ages.
My dear, war is an ugly issue and you can not control its outcome. We, peace lovers and civilians can control situation before the war. We can build communication channels, we can try to understand each others concerns and address them, and we can emphasize human rights, democracy and accountability among us and between us. We can show our people that peace is possible among and between us. We can celebrate life and subscribe to it rather than subscribe to ways leading to mutual sufferings or catastrophes .We can try to see the human side of each other in order to stop our communities from demonizing the other. We can make war a hard option to our leaders but once War breaks in then we can not control the outcome and the agony.
What you are doing is just demonizing Jews, Idolizing Arabs and making Arabs appear as innocent victims. Of course you make it obvious, too, that you want to destroy any Arab who is not like you. You are interested in filling gap of time and space with empty propaganda rhetoric that you think is being heard by the others. You like how you sound to yourself without realizing that you sound villain to others. You think you are doing fine by filling space with your words. If you succeeded in irritating Tsedek then you are doing something extremely bad. Tsedek is very peace loving person and even I find Tsedek nearer to Arabs than to Jews.
Calm down, I swear that every information I told you about is the truth. We need to find ways to build communication bridges with Peace as our main target. I am open for suggestions. And, no I do not know how to contact you unless you are that woman on Manar who speaks good English and behaves same like you, filling time with empty propaganda rhetoric….. No harm in little teasing it is an innocent mild form of sarcasm.
war is an ugly issue and you can not control its outcome.

That's IT, Ibraheem - EVERYTHING must be done to prevent war. Nobody, absolutely nobody except for weapondealers gain from it.
Oh "Ibrahim", I thought I went over that same argument with Tsedek. I will do a quick review of it, for you. First, you could not even back up any of your "facts" with any sort of data, and yet, you demand that I list the names of Jenin victims, their ages, and sex? Now you will also ask me to list the names of the 1200 Lebanese killed by "Israel" last summer? And not doing so would mean that there is no factual basis to the whole thing? What a pathetic loser you are.

Since you claim there were far more victims of Amal's siege of the refugee camps (Amal at the time was by the way fully supported by "Israel" -- because it sought the maintenance of the status quo in occupied South Lebanon), why don't YOU list the names of Amal's victims? I forgot, you get to enjoy a whole different set of standards.

By the way, the numbers I mentioned are ones that are the sole doing of "Israeli" direct actions , not via any of their mercenary/proxy armies/militias, like Haddad's forces, the Phalangists, etc. But if you would like we could even talk about the training, arming, and funding of these proxy forces too. I am sure you would have a lot of fun with that, especially that it fits into your theory, after all, about the murderous uncivilized nature of Arabs that pits them against one another. Only thing is, they never did consider themselves Arabs, those proxies. They considered themselves "Phoenicians." There you go, you now have a new theory to work on. The monstrosity and uncivlized nature of Phoenicians. Or maybe you will claim Phoenicians genes have been tainted by Arab ones. I don't know. Do keep me updated on that ingenious theory of yours.

I am not demonizing Jews. Heck, I am not even demonizing "Israelis." "Israelis" are quite good at it themselves, with such talk as tsedek's, and such actions as that of the zioNAZI racist regime. With "Israelis" like these, you sure as hell don't need an Arab or a Muslim to demonize you.

My email address is on my profile. Click on my name it will take you to my profile.
I am not even demonizing "Israelis." "Israelis" are quite good at it themselves, with such talk as tsedek's

Jenin was a refugee camp with all its occupants listed with UNRWA, the names of the civilians are easy to list if there was a true massacre. Non could be produced becuase 95% of the casualties were PLO fighters many of whom were not registered in Jenin. Jenin became the bomb factory for Arafat to carry out his suicidal bombing campaign over Israel.
the names of the civilians are easy to list if there was a true massacre. Non could be produced becuase 95% of the casualties were PLO fighters
First, who said that no names could be produced?

Second, are you going even further by claiming there were no civilians killed?

You are even a worse head case than I thought.

By the way, you assume the names don't exist. That you don't know them, that you haven't done enough research to find them (rather than expect them to be widely available), does not mean that it doesn't exist.

Can you tell me the name of some of the 1200 civilians who were killed last summer? But you - and the whole world -- surely knows and memorizes by heart the names of the 3 "Israeli" soldiers in captivity. So much for the accusations of worldwide anti-Semitism.

By the way it is not true that there aren't names. After people were allowed into the camps, many journalists and aid workers interviewed relatives of civilian victims, and there are even pictures of all the victims. But you don't care enough to look. You care about one thing: making "Israel" look good, and that of course will always -- ALWAYS - come at the expense of truth. ALWAYS. No exceptions, whatsoever. I have tried but found no instance in which "Israel" has not lied about a certain event or created different stories to justify it. ANY event.

How about some of the names of the victims of the Jenin massacre? You asked for it, didn't you?

Muhammad Omar Taki Hawashin, aged 13
Nayef Qasem Lahloh, aged 17
Fares Imad Husni al-Zaban, aged 14

Did you know their names? Tell me, ever had the whole world justify the killing of 1200 "Israelis" in retaliation for the killing of these children? But then, let us even talk about the tens of thousands of Palestinians rotting in "Israeli" prisons, and the world only cares about 3 "Israeli" soldiers who most probably had blood on their hands, unlike the tens of thousands of Palestinians who haven't even held a gun in their hands.

You said you would start a different 'page'. Why did you go 'back' and continue spreading your distortions then? Is it because the urge to defend "Israel" defeats your human urge to see the truth and look into your conscience?
By the way, you even had the simplest of your statements wrong. UNRWA does keep lists of refugees, but not all refugees in camps are registered with UNRWA. Many are in fact not. This is also the case in Lebanon, Syria, etc. Where do you get your facts from?
Sorry, alghaliboon with all the turning and twisting you do, there was no massacre and everybody taking note of the facts and the evidence knows that. Official instantions have stated this -even those not very friendly with israel- and nothing, but really,, really nothing can be done to have this truth turned into the lie of a 'massacre'.
A senior member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad who surrendered to Israeli forces in Jenin described the battle as "a very hard fight" in which both sides took on casualties, but he said he didn't see "tens of people" killed by the Israeli army. - - Mardawi said he and other Palestinian fighters had expected Israel to attack with planes and tanks. He spoke enthusiastically about Israel's decision to send in infantry. - - "It was like hunting ... like being given a prize. I couldn't believe it when I saw the soldiers," he said. "The Israelis knew that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to get killed." - - Mardawi drew a map of the camp and talked about the course of the battle. Their weapons were guns and crudely made bombs and booby traps -- "big ones" for tanks and "others the size of a water bottle." He estimated 1,000 to 2,000 bombs and booby traps were spread through the camp.

"It was a very hard fight. We fought at close quarters," he said, "sometimes just a matter of a few meters between us, sometimes even in the same house."

He said there were about 100 Palestinians in the battle -- 60 to 70 fighters from the camp and 20-30 members of the Palestinian security forces.

That figure is not so different from what Israel has said. The Israel Defense Forces has said as many as 200 fighters were in the camp but that about 100 surrendered during the fighting.

Asked about the allegations of a massacre, Mardawi said, "By my own standard, what happened there was a massacre. But if you are asking, 'Did I see tens of people killed?' Frankly, no. In my group, we were in an area with no other people. Three fighters with me were killed. Later when we started to move from place to place, we saw destroyed houses and could smell bodies."

He eventually surrendered when infantry forces disappeared and armored bulldozers appeared.

"The huge bulldozer came in, and we were in destroyed houses," he said. "There were no soldiers or tanks. ... There was nothing I could do against that bulldozer." - -

Nothing he could do against the bulldozer? How about kill the one operating it, rather than surrender his sorry, treacherous ass?

Of course, we all know how notoriously pro-"Israeli" the "confessions" of captured Palestinians and Lebanese have been. It must be that when under the influence of the monstrous Arabs, they are a bunch of liars, but when amongst the civilized, peace-loving, never-erring, pure-of-arms "Israelis", they shed all vestiges of their monstrosity and lying, and start speaking the truth.

Tsedek, it seems you innocently missed this post of mine. So here, I will re-post it for your convenience:


Tsedek, let me ask you something.

Do you believe what Holocaust survivors tell you?

Do you think that Ahmadinejad is right in calling for the removal of restrictions on the study of what happened during the Holocaust? Or even on whether there was a Holocaust to begin with?

Do you, by default, question the Holocaust "claims". If not, why not?

Just answer these questions for me will you.
One more question, Tsedek, do you believe the claims of the Iranian Jews about how they live very good lives in Iran, and how there are genuine freedoms there, and that they are not subject to anti-Semitic attacks, etc.? If yes, why? If no, why not?
And did you even read the whole thing you posted?


Please re-read it.

Pay special attention to the smelling corpses part.

Now you also get to pick and choose on which points the person is lying and on which he is telling the truth?

So what really was your point in posting this article? Are you saying you actually are going by his claims that there was a massacre even though he personally didn't see anybody getting killed because there was no one around him where he was (which would also belie "Israeli" claims about how they sent kids to lead "Israeli" soldiers to boobytrapped areas)...

Read and think before you post.
Otherwise you will expose how your every action is based on blind trust in your leaders and terrorist occupation army, and vicious hatred and bigotry towards Arabs and Muslims.
Btw I love the spin in the sub-title and the first paragraph / bolded part of the article.

"Says he didn't see large numbers killed"


"'Did I see tens of people killed?' Frankly, no. In my group, we were in an area with no other people. Three fighters with me were killed. Later when we started to move from place to place, we saw destroyed houses and could smell bodies."

Fascinating stuff. Just fascinating.
produce the names or just shut up. of course i can produce the 1200 names silly. It is so easy. Go to Baalbek road and start counting, or to Shayaah road and start counting or to any village in south Lebnon then you can collect the names. you are full of crap labayk and it is begining to sound so childish speaking with you. Tsedek i rest my case. You can see why is my position that Arabs need generations to change their mentality and become ready for peace. Peace has no real meaning. Let me tell you the story of "the Alsalam Mosque" which means "Peace MOsque" in USA, the founder and the Imam were found guilty of plotting to shoot down one civilian Craft. They dared to call the Mosque: "The Peace MOsque". This is the peace concept for Arabs. I do not hate Arabs but I know they are not capable of understanding "Peace".I still believe in peace as the only way but Arabs can not comprehend what it takes and what it means. Peace to them is shooting a civilian Airplane.
vicious hatred and bigotry towards Arabs and Muslims.


youu absolutely don't know to value humans do you? after all this time you know me, you can still say these things...

very disappointing.
Is erg ook nog iets positiefs te melden?
Flappie? LOL :D
Op zich is dat al positief "flappie"

(ben je wie ik denk dat je bent?)
of course i can produce the 1200 names silly
Well then, do so, or shut the hell up.

Go to Baalbek road and start counting, or to Shayaah road and start counting or to any village in south Lebnon then you can collect the names.
So I presume you have been in Jenin and have seen no names. In fact, you have no clue and are so full of crap. In Lebanon we usually put pictures on the sides of roads of our resistance fighters who have been martyred, not of civilians. The pictures and names of civilians killed are put in cemeteries or at the site of mass graves.

Thanks for expressing more clearly your bigotry and hatred of Arabs. Your doublespeak is laughable and shows how schizophrenic, sick, and deranged "Israeli" society is.

In the words of your leaders (who reflected the ills of your own society on your enemies), you never miss the opportunity to miss an opportunity. Just as we were about to put politics aside, you go ahead and ruin it all due to your arrogance and blind herd mentality. You accuse us Arabs and Muslims of being blind sheep, yet you have proven to be less questioning of your country's version of events than I am of that of mine.

I know how to value humans. But the things that have been said about my people and my religion (and those who practice my religion) in this post are quite frankly disgusting even when measured by the lowest of standards. You know how patient I am with rude and offensive people. You've seen it before. But this does not mean that when my religion is offended, when my culture is dragged to the ground and wiped the floor with, I would remain silent and would not expose the bigotry, racism, and distortions that pervade the so-called arguments and are spread under the cover of the so-called yearning for peace.

Too bad when it comes to the reputation of your army, you do not tolerate that the facts speak for themselves, backed by the international community, numerous human rights and aid agencies, and hundreds of reporters of various backgrounds and nationalities. Instead you accuse the whole world of anti-Semitism and anti-"Israeli" bias, and cheer for the states that vote against security council resolutions calling for a halt to inhumane and terrorist activities and violations of human rights -- I believe currently, four states usually vote against such resolutions: "Israel", USA, Marshall Islands and... the Federated States of Micronesia. Now excuse me I do not intend to irritate you, but Micronesia and Marshall Islands? ha ha ha. Yes yes, it's all further proof of how anti-Semitic and biased the world is. None of this is any indication that "Israel" might actually be doing SOMETHING wrong. And so if I point any of this out, and point to the bigotry and racism that pervades your blind trust in your government's and army's claims, I am accused of not knowing how to value humans. Brilliant. Just brilliant. This is what would be accurately termed "psychological terrorism."
just produce the names of Jenin's massacred palestinians Labayk or just shut up. Further, tell me why "Human rights watch" was forced to cancell its News conference in Beirut? May be because it was threatened by your civilized party?
just produce the names of Jenin's massacred palestinians Labayk or just shut up.
Only when you produce the names of the 1200 civilians killed last summer by your beloved zioNAZIs. The POINT is, since you are so thick-skulled, that not naming victims because they do not enjoy the celebrity status of some soldiers from a certain nationality, does not mean that there were no dead.

You were stupider than I thought you were. You sounded quite intelligent at first, but then you lost it. Desperation does that to people.
Maybe you can visit the Jenin camp to read their names on the poster and see the pictures of the children, old men, and women who were killed in addition to the fighters.
Or you can check out some pictures of how "Israelis" make the desert bloom. But it might be too gruesome for you, so don't say you weren't warned about the peaceful nature of the brave pure-of-arms freedom fighters of Zion.



Names, sex and age Labayk. The poster shows only militants or fighters.I see no children or women. You know how to get the list of 1200 it is easy, just request it from Alhayaa Alolya lilighatha, they have full list. Of course they do not have the other list of dead militants.
The poster shows only militants or fighters.I see no children or women.
Look more closely. Maybe use the zoom feature on your computer. I see at least 20 women, children, and old men, in addition to the fact that not all young men who were killed were actually fighters.

But you will also claim - as some uber-deranged "Israelis" do - that the 1200 killed were in fact Hezbullah fighters. You think you are actually sounding reasonable, but you don't know how ridiculous you are actually sounding. I noticed you also made no comment on the names of 3 children I mentioned. Can YOU name 3 children who were killed in Lebanon last summer?

You would have much more credibility if you actually abide by your own standards, by naming the names of the 1200 civilian victims, not to mention, the names of the 500 Hezbullah fighters that the zioNAZIs allege they have killed (in reality the number is 250). Go ahead, I am waiting. This should be easy given that we have our Martyrs' posters on sides of roads.

Abide by your standards. Go and get the list from the hay2a 3olya lil'ighatha, and post it here. Produce the names or else shut up.
By the way, I presume by saying you can easily get the names of the 1200 killed, you mean you have actually checked with UNRWA and numerous human rights and aid/relief organizations for the names of the Palestinian civilians massacred in Jenin, and that they could not provide you with any. Very well, I can check with them if you have in fact gotten in touch with them about it.

And something else for your enjoyment - more anti-Semitic propaganda.
SOME of the children killed during the Jenin massacre:

Muhammad Omar Taki Hawashin, aged 13
Nayef Qasem Lahloh, aged 17
Fares Imad Husni al-Zaban, aged 14
Asa'd Faisal Qarini, aged 10
Sa'ed Subhi al-Wahesh, aged 10
Assad Faisal 'Arsan, aged 12
Hani Abu Irmali, aged 16

Two unidentified Palestinian children, one a baby, whose bodies were found on April 22, 2002.

I guess Palestinian children are bullet magnets or something. Poor "Israeli" soldiers.
Or maybe you will now say, prove that these people actually exist. Hey, I don't know how ridiculous you are willing to get to defend, like a sheep, the zioNAZI fairy tale about "going out of their way not to commit a massacre." Of course, they always go out of their way to avoid casualties among the ranks of their enemies. And when massacres do happen, it's all because their enemies used them as human shields. In fact, they don't even need to present proof that the civilians were used as human shields by their enemies. "Everybody knows" that this is the case. But, we actually need to prove that the names of victims we come up with, were names of real people. Of course, we are masters of name-fabrication. Hey, we even fabricated some 59,769 names from the "Israeli" invasion. Only the 231 of the 60,000 were real.
Let's not forget the concurrent massacre in Nablus.

Abdullah Samir Omar al-Shubi, aged 10
Anas Samir Omar al-Shubi, aged 4
Azzam Samir Omar al-Shubi, aged 7
(the al-Shubi brothers were killed along with 4 other family members)
Ahmad Amjad Abadeh, aged 12
Muhammad Hasib Awad, aged 14
Khairy Bassam Shihada Awad
Ra'fat Bassem Shihada Awad
Qussi Farah Abu Haija', aged 12
Tabaruk Jaber Odeh
YOu made my point on Jenin. People with brains would understand. So you could come up with names after all but unfortunately it was not up to your expectations i guess. I hope this will make you reasses Jenin as a simple massacre to civilians or just a security operation with collateral damage. I do not see a massacre, I just see a security operation to oust Arafat's Bomb factory the claimed lifes of tens of civilians. YOu should blame Arafat for that not the Israelis. Same like you should not blame the Lebanese army for ousting the terrorists in Nahr Albared.. NOw that i told you how to get your list of 1200 i can not get it directly, same reason I can not go around taking pictures of many lies that you mentioned here. Any how, for God's sake i am not interested in your game of propaganda. IF you want peace you would be able to find ways to seek it with Israelis. Tsedek is a good connection. Myself, thanks to you, I lost any shred of hope that i was putting on your party as being reasonable and pragmatic party that could contribute to provide better future for Lebanese. I always looked at 14 March leaders as Mafiosis and tribal leaders but your party and your way of thinking has a more dangerous impact on Lebanon. YOu have blinded your eyes, killed the humanity in your souls. Peace and love can not come out from you. Thank you for opening my eyes. There is hope in 14 March people to change but you are not able to change. You are over taken by hate.
Some more names of civilians from the Jenin massacre:

Ahmad Hussein Abu al-Heija', aged 22
Rabi' Ahmad Jalamne, aged 24
Bilal Muhammad al-Haj, aged 22
Ahmad Hussein al-Tarzi, aged 19
Burhan Samir Burhan
Zaki Shalabi, aged 60
Wadah Shalabi, aged 37
Abd al Karim al-Sa'di, aged 38
Abu al-Abd al-Sa'di, aged 70
Abu al-Omar al Zar'iti, aged 70
Nasser Abu-Hatab, aged 25
Yehya al-Zubaidi, aged 24
Fadwa Fathi al-Jamal (nurse)
Yusri Abu Faraj, aged 50
Munir Issa Washahi, aged 18 and his mother Umm Marwan aged 54
Mohammed Yousef Qalaq, aged 22
Amal Hardan
Jamila Hardan, aged 35, 7-months pregnant
Jamal al-Sabbagh, aged 35
Issa Turkman, aged 31
Jamal Tuwfiq 'Ar'arawi

And dozens of unidentified bodies (including babies as young as 5 days old) of civilians found under the rubble of their homes. In addition, some civilians trapped under the rubble of their homes during the destruction campaign were saved weeks after the end of the massacres, after relief workers could reach the destroyed houses flattened on the heads of their owners.

Note that there was in fact fire from the air (apaches) throughout the campaign of terror and massacre.
I hope this will make you reasses Jenin as a simple massacre to civilians or just a security operation with collateral damage.
So the killing of more than a dozen children, and more than 30 civilians, shot by snipers, is "collateral" damage? Great. "Israelis" are allowed to jump from point A to point C without any need for point B. Actually, they already have point C ready in case someone mentions point A. It's always about collateral damage, about unintended victims, about the victims being victims not of the bullets that killed them but of the leaders whom they had not even met or seen personally, nor in many cases even supported. Blame the victim, always. Actually they weren't even victims. The real victims were the "Israelis" who were badmouthed despite their noble efforts at preventing a massacre.

And someone was saying Arabs and Muslims are into conspiracy. Yes you can go back to licking the boots of February 14 gangsters who want to turn Lebanon into Saudi Arabia (btw, they were the ones who funded Fateh al Islam). How do you like a mini-Saudi Arabia on your doorstep, AVRAHAM ?
Strange, all those civilians, these Palestinians truly are bullet magnets. In fact, I think last summer we surpassed their own reputation of being the biggest bullet magnets on earth. 1200 killed in "collateral" damage, victims of their own leaders, not of the bombs that killed them. No, really, how can Arabs actually be victims? They are camel-riding, backwards, fanatical monsters with no regard for life. Compare them to the Israelis' love for life. And I thought the February 14 were the ones who loved life. It seems like they have some fierce competition.
Tsedek you have not responded to my questions about Ahmadinejad & the Holocaust. Any particular reason?

Avraham, what do you say about the "Facility 1391"? Again a fine showcase of global anti-Semitism and Hezbullahi propaganda, I presume...
Let me tell you what I think Avraham, you have created this excuse in your mind, have tried to do everything to convince everyone that I am an evil, brainwashed, hopeless case, because despite your calls for dialogue, you actually don't want it, are afraid of it, because it will show you once and for all, that Arabs and Muslims are not the blind, monstrous, uncivilized, hateful, fanatical people your bigoted, hateful self claims they are.
Anyway I think this discussion is already at the point where it's going in circles. And I have to go, so if you want to talk and have real dialogue then you can email me.
I cannot sign into various programs Alghaliboon am having troubles with connection.
I'll be back 'on' soon as this problem (with my provider) has settled.
Niet dat ik weet.
Ben eigenlijk een soort walvis, op onregelmatige plekken duik ik op, kijk een beetje rond en misschien als het zich loont juin ik de zaak een beetje op, en blijf of verdwijn.

Trouwens, zeker wel een beetje vermoeiend om al die soms uitermate langdraderige commentaren te moeten lezen?
Labayk, go to this site..http://gnblog.com Interact with the Israelis living in Israel tyring to be good neighbors with Lebanon and other Arab countries. Myself, unfortunately, I have a mental block about your rhetoric. You will learn something there if you keep your mind open.
Flappie,I agree with you,lol.

Yeah...very drawn out ....134 comments going nowhere,although Ibraheem had some very interesting info to share,but obviously Alghaliboon is a nutcase not representative of Lebanese and not worth debating.

Flappie,try 'The Dutch Forum in Israel' ....cool site
Tsedek you have not responded to my questions about Ahmadinejad & the Holocaust. Any particular reason?


Do you believe what Holocaust survivors tell you?

Do you think that Ahmadinejad is right in calling for the removal of restrictions on the study of what happened during the Holocaust? Or even on whether there was a Holocaust to begin with?

Do you, by default, question the Holocaust "claims". If not, why not?

Let me give you an example, Alghaliboon. There was a Prophet and he married, among other wives, a (very young) girl. Perfectly normal in those times, I'm convinced done with the best intentions at heart for the girl according to the existing conditions those times and without the propaganda machines we have nowadays there was an honest reporting on this true happened event. Billions of believers all over the world see this Prophet as a kind, peaceloving, very wise man and sort of an example in his wisdom. They're called Muslims. THEN:

there exists another part of humanity that -now some people are committing atrocities pretending to talk in Islam's name are trying to drag Islam into disposition- that incessibly call this very same Prophet a pedophile - and won't let anything or argument change their minds. . . because in these days to marry such a young child would be called pedophaelic.

I'm telling you this story as a metaphore: time changes perceptions. To 'investigate' the Holocaust now would bring about different perception of it. It is enough that the Holocaust was a Holocaust - and that's it. To not investigate is meant not to change the message that the Holocaust survivors wanted to preserve: 'never again'. Now, people can hate or be sceptic enough towards the people that were victim of this tragedy to want to take the 'edge' from under the Holocaust by trying to diminish the tragedy by all sort of claims or minor allegations, and whether they are true or not MISS the message, the TRUE reason the Holocaust should pertain its impression as like it was on the first day after that war: NEVER AGAIN, and LEARN from it, apply it and watch it - that it will never happen to them either.

It is a HUGE shame to take a perfectly normal situation of 1400 years ago and demonize it according to today's norms, it is an EVENLY HUGE shame to diminish the suffering of millions of people by starting to question their suffering and deligitimize their message. You see: 'far-away' 'investigation' cannot EVER even touch the truth. In both of the situations I sketched here.

You may FEEL as if Jenin was a massacre, but it was not. Doesn't take away from the feeling you have about it. Doesn't take away from the horror the innocents that were victim of this totally legal military raid have suffered. But, it was not a massacre.
Nee, Flappie - het is alleen maar frustrerend te weten dat iedereen volgens zijn eigen concept vrede en gerechtigheid achterna jaagd, terwijl het juist dat achterna jagen is dat voor oorlogen zorgt: het opposite effect dus :(
Wat ik me al langer af vraag, is er ook een verband tussen u en dat gezicht van die Miep wat elke keer bij uw commentaar verschijnt.
Did have a look on this site Dutch Forum, with the words of van Spijk " Dan liever de lucht in !"
Palestinians are not allowed to enter lebanon! It's a fact, we need special clearance from the Lebanese intelligence department, those who comment number two talks about are the Palestinian refugees who reside in Lebanon, it's almost impossible to get a visa to enter lebanon, i tried for over 3 years, i always got refused.....just like everyone else! And the refusal is accompanied with come racial insults ... such as " we don't want palestinians on our territories" ...or " don't come near our embassy again" ...
We can"t enter syria either ....
Egypt makes our life hell in order to give us visas , so everybody gives up.....

Not to mention that we are the exception of the rule for all the arab countries who write clearly on their Visa regulation laws : " all arabs are allowed to enter our lands ..." " With the exception of Palestinians!

Egypt goes deeper and says : foreigners from this and that country are allowed to enter our country with visas, unless they are from Palestinian Blood .... Which is nothing but a very disgusting attitude..

This lebanese commentator obviously never left lebanon and doensn't have the slightest idea about anything ! He asked Tsedek to wake up, but i believe that if someone has to wake up, it's him!
I hope Alghaliboon still will read this Ramzi because I think he is truly convinced in his notion that Lebanon does let Palestinians in freely and make no difficulties obtaining a visa.

Thanks for puting that straight!
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