zondag, september 16, 2007
Meltingpot? Well, whadda'ya say?
Source = Ynet
Melting pot or not
An Ethiopian, Arab, Russian, strictly Orthodox, Ashkenazi and Sephardi go out to find a job, rent an apartment and enroll a child in kindergarten. Discrimination? Racism? Absolutely.
An Ethiopian, Arab, Russian, strictly Orthodox, Ashkenazi and Sephardi man of the same age group and same educational background were sent by Yedioth Ahronoth to look for a job, find an apartment and enroll a child in kindergarten. Will their ethnicity have an effect in 2007 Israel? The answer, unfortunately, is yes.
The six were chosen to represent the different sectors of society. They approached more than 400 restaurants, cafes, apartments for rent, and kindergartens in 22 cities - from Kiryat Shmona to Eilat – in each conversation the applicant's background was mentioned either directly or in a roundabout way.The Ashkenazi caller, Itai Unger, received the most positive answers and encountered no expressions of racism. The Sepharadi Yehuda Peretz arrived second while the strictly Orthodox and Russian immigrant arrived in third and fourth place respectively.
Yet, more than half of the calls made by the Ethiopian representative, Senbato Tamanu, resulted in a refusal and dozens contained derogatory remarks. Following closely, with more than 70 percent negative answers and numerous phone-slamming, was the Arab caller Said Hanin.
Following are some examples:Tel Aviv
In the kindergarten in the upscale Dan neighborhood, Senbato, Itai and the strictly Orthodox, Yisrael, received positive responses. Said, on the other hand, was told that "we're booked, there are no vacancies."
The waiter position was no more relevant when Boris called but magically became available again for Itai.Jerusalem
The kindergarten teacher from Pisgat Ze'ev in Jerusalem chatted happily with Boris in fluent Russian. Senbato as well was answered positively but when Said called the answer was: "I don't want to hang up on you but you better look for another place."
At 4:50 pm Yehuda was invited for interview in a food stall in the Mall. At 5:00 pm Said was told "we are not hiring at he moment." At 5:15 pm Itai was asked to come in the next day for an interview.
Haifa
Three competed on the waiter's job in a coffee shop: Boris, Yisrael and Itai. Boris and Yisrael received negative answers while Itai was summoned for a job interview.
Said, who had many failures in other cities, received positive answers when trying to enroll a child in kindergarten and when asking to rent an apartment.
Bat Yam
At the café Senbato applied for a job, they asked for an "espresso-machine's operator" certificate and explained "the machine we use is very complicated." Itai, on the other hand, was asked to attend a job interview even though he said he had no experience.
Holon
After many repeated calls, Holon turned out to be racism-free. All six representatives received positive answers. When Said asked the landlord "don't you mind that I'm an Arab?" the answer was: "Not in the least."
For your knowledge,
Tse.
Comments:
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Yemen immigrants returning to Yemen..
:D
"At least there we are helped"
I'm telling you, Nobody, Israel is a 'tough' country.
And, these are people that dreamed about 'the Holy Country" all their lives :(
Yemen immigrants returning to Yemen..
:D
"At least there we are helped"
I'm telling you, Nobody, Israel is a 'tough' country.
And, these are people that dreamed about 'the Holy Country" all their lives :(
frankly i think it's all cheap sensationalism ... this country had millions of immigrants in its history ... i know some russians who left for canada or went back ... so what ?? to go back to yemen seems bizarre of course, but then you always have freak cases...
as to this poll, something is simply wrong here .... i am russian myself and know many russians .. even if there is something that this poll detected it's not on the level that we see or feel ..
if anything the arab and ultra orthodox have to had more hard time, but then their ultra came before the russian .... also it's impossible to send this, apparently quite overweight, ultra orthodox guy with all his ultra paraphernalia to look for a position of a waiter and then claim to possess common sense...
i think you miss the point of israeli media .. israeli media is catering to a very neurotic audience that likes to get hysterical ... jews are very eccentric people with a tendency to exaggerate and they like creating emotionally loaded atmosphere and feeling living on the edge or at the end of the world ... and this is what the media is selling them
as to this poll, something is simply wrong here .... i am russian myself and know many russians .. even if there is something that this poll detected it's not on the level that we see or feel ..
if anything the arab and ultra orthodox have to had more hard time, but then their ultra came before the russian .... also it's impossible to send this, apparently quite overweight, ultra orthodox guy with all his ultra paraphernalia to look for a position of a waiter and then claim to possess common sense...
i think you miss the point of israeli media .. israeli media is catering to a very neurotic audience that likes to get hysterical ... jews are very eccentric people with a tendency to exaggerate and they like creating emotionally loaded atmosphere and feeling living on the edge or at the end of the world ... and this is what the media is selling them
israeli media is catering to a very neurotic audience that likes to get hysterical ... jews are very eccentric people with a tendency to exaggerate and they like creating emotionally loaded atmosphere and feeling living on the edge or at the end of the world ... and this is what the media is selling them
So, these things do not happen?
So, these things do not happen?
it's not that they do not happen but israeli media has a way to concentrate on this stuff in a very grotesque way .... they happen in other places too but they do not receive such attention as here ...
my friend has just come from germany ... he lives in israel, his family in germany and he goes to visit them from time to time ... i was talking to him this morning ... he says that it's impossible to compare between germany and israel in terms of integration of immigrants ...
his family and their friends are unintegrated socially and culturally as if they came there only yesterday ... economically they are doing well but at the personal level they are absolutely estranged .. they came to germany just a few years after he left for israel ..
in fact he says that even some third generation turks and others in germany still speak their languages and live in their own separate space ... germans have a very fragmented society in this sense .. isreal is doing far better than other countries in this regard ...
my friend has just come from germany ... he lives in israel, his family in germany and he goes to visit them from time to time ... i was talking to him this morning ... he says that it's impossible to compare between germany and israel in terms of integration of immigrants ...
his family and their friends are unintegrated socially and culturally as if they came there only yesterday ... economically they are doing well but at the personal level they are absolutely estranged .. they came to germany just a few years after he left for israel ..
in fact he says that even some third generation turks and others in germany still speak their languages and live in their own separate space ... germans have a very fragmented society in this sense .. isreal is doing far better than other countries in this regard ...
The germans even send scientists to Israel to learn how to imigrate. :-)
On the other hand, we can not compare the situation, cause Israel has to find new ways to attract MORE people to immigrate ["jewish state"-discussion] AND has old problems to solve. The situation looks good, cause the mission was impossible, but if you are looking at key-data [from identification with Israel, poverty, rigths-situation, ...] theres a lot of work to do.
Germany has a current immigration of ... 20 000 people. 430 000 people come to germany and leave after a few months [of work for example]. A different development. And the old problems [language or "Ghetto-Building" [Ghetto in the sense of Harlem-Ghetto] are homegrown, but are in the focus of politics, so you can think that problems will be solved in the next few years. [Not crime problems like Al-Queda-cells. Thats not homegrown, thats a problem of world-politics that swept into germany ... beginning in the 70ties]
On the other hand, we can not compare the situation, cause Israel has to find new ways to attract MORE people to immigrate ["jewish state"-discussion] AND has old problems to solve. The situation looks good, cause the mission was impossible, but if you are looking at key-data [from identification with Israel, poverty, rigths-situation, ...] theres a lot of work to do.
Germany has a current immigration of ... 20 000 people. 430 000 people come to germany and leave after a few months [of work for example]. A different development. And the old problems [language or "Ghetto-Building" [Ghetto in the sense of Harlem-Ghetto] are homegrown, but are in the focus of politics, so you can think that problems will be solved in the next few years. [Not crime problems like Al-Queda-cells. Thats not homegrown, thats a problem of world-politics that swept into germany ... beginning in the 70ties]
That was fascinating. And as for the comments above about Israel having a relatively good record at integration, even if it were true it only applies to the immigrants, not to the Arab Israeli man who received the worst treatment.
Shual - they sent people to Israel to learn about immigration? :D I never heard that one. I think in Germany citizens are more integrated than in the Netherlands, no? In the Netherlands they call people that have immigrated from non-European countries, even if they're 3rd generation(!) "allochtonen" - I find that ridiculous.
Nobody in your reaction to PITS you forget that arab-israeli's hardly are immigrants, being that they lived here before israel was even established.
Nobody in your reaction to PITS you forget that arab-israeli's hardly are immigrants, being that they lived here before israel was even established.
there is something in what you say, tsedek ... but it's only partially true ..
the scale of disintegration in some places in europe is staggering while people who were rioting in banlieus in paris and other french cities were all second generation and french speakers ... the french media repeatedly stressed this point, that they are no immigrants ...
also having muslims as immigrants gives the french a certain advantage ... they can demand from them to integrate .. they can ban headscarfes ... israel is in disadvantage in this sense and even when it's dealing with honor killing or inter clan feuds in the muslim sector it has often tread the ground very lightly ... israel cannot just come to its arabs and tell them: if you want to live in the mediaval ages you can go back to saudi arabia, something that the french do ...
in the same way when bishara says:
The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is not a demographic dispute, but a national one. It's not the problem of 1.2 million Palestinians living in Israel. They are like all Arabs, only with Israeli citizenship forced upon them. Return Palestine to us and take your democracy with you. We Arabs are not interested in it.
,there is nothing israelis can say in reply, because it's true ... and if he has eventually lost his parlamentarian seat, it was not because of his regular appearances like that one but only because of his ties with hezbollah
the scale of disintegration in some places in europe is staggering while people who were rioting in banlieus in paris and other french cities were all second generation and french speakers ... the french media repeatedly stressed this point, that they are no immigrants ...
also having muslims as immigrants gives the french a certain advantage ... they can demand from them to integrate .. they can ban headscarfes ... israel is in disadvantage in this sense and even when it's dealing with honor killing or inter clan feuds in the muslim sector it has often tread the ground very lightly ... israel cannot just come to its arabs and tell them: if you want to live in the mediaval ages you can go back to saudi arabia, something that the french do ...
in the same way when bishara says:
The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is not a demographic dispute, but a national one. It's not the problem of 1.2 million Palestinians living in Israel. They are like all Arabs, only with Israeli citizenship forced upon them. Return Palestine to us and take your democracy with you. We Arabs are not interested in it.
,there is nothing israelis can say in reply, because it's true ... and if he has eventually lost his parlamentarian seat, it was not because of his regular appearances like that one but only because of his ties with hezbollah
they simply dont have israeli media .. otherwise a huge scandal would have been raging there long time ago ... i myself met there all sorts of cases that israeli media would have been celebrating for weeks ...
for example: a person of 40-50 years enters a bar of my friend where he and me are sitting drinking .. he offers us to buy a camera he has apparently stolen a few minutes ago .. we start a conversation in the course of which it transpires that: the man and his family are immigrants from egypt.. he has four children ... in his 19 years in spain he has never worked .. he lives only by stealing ... his spanish is rudimentary and he refuses to learn the language because as he claims the spanish are racists and discriminate against him and other muslims ...
you know how many cases like this i encountered there ??? the spanish have a very lousy media that does not know how to hook its audience ... otherwise they would have been a huge scandal there ..
we have shitty places like theirs .. but it's mostly arab places that don't border on some israeli town ... our urban arabs are much better integrated .. jaffo arabs may be criminalized and into drugs or whatever but they are urban and normal .. there you can walk around a big city and suddenly find your self in saudi arabia with veiled women and other shit ...
for example: a person of 40-50 years enters a bar of my friend where he and me are sitting drinking .. he offers us to buy a camera he has apparently stolen a few minutes ago .. we start a conversation in the course of which it transpires that: the man and his family are immigrants from egypt.. he has four children ... in his 19 years in spain he has never worked .. he lives only by stealing ... his spanish is rudimentary and he refuses to learn the language because as he claims the spanish are racists and discriminate against him and other muslims ...
you know how many cases like this i encountered there ??? the spanish have a very lousy media that does not know how to hook its audience ... otherwise they would have been a huge scandal there ..
we have shitty places like theirs .. but it's mostly arab places that don't border on some israeli town ... our urban arabs are much better integrated .. jaffo arabs may be criminalized and into drugs or whatever but they are urban and normal .. there you can walk around a big city and suddenly find your self in saudi arabia with veiled women and other shit ...
well, Nobody I often walk from Hilton beach to the Opera building and beyond, and I can assure you that 99% of the arab women I meet are veiled (besides that I don't know to 'identify' arabs from jews or christians anyway, so I don't know how many of them go without scarf).
Still I think Israel cannot say anything at all, if it is to keep up personal freedom of worship. Jewish religious women may wear wigs for the most part (which is wrong halachanitically speaking but soit) but they cover their heads just the same. Not to speak about the black undertakers outfit of jewish religious men...
Luckily enough at least this doesn't form a problem in Israel, and I would very much like to keep it that way, thankyouverymuch.
In the Netherlands the 'not wanting to shake hands' seems to bring up a very vocal discussion. When I first heard of it I sat with my mouth open of surprise. They weren't kidding *_*
Something so trivial is being made into a prototype 'problem with muslims' -
Do they forget religious jewish men don't shake hands of women as well?
You can make a problem out of everything. (not you but in a manner of speaking) and I think that's exactly what anti-Islam politicians are doing in Europe, at least in NL. From there on forwards it's not such a long way to feel 'disintegrated'. What means integration anyway? That you have to melt away into the mainstream?
I don't think the example you gave is reflecting. I have no idea about Spain, but it serves logic to think that criminals will pop up from whatever population anyway, and they of course use the most tangible EXCUSE for their crimes: 'they' are doing us wrong - that doesn't mean to say that 'muslims' or 'egyptians' are disintegrated. That means that those individuals have a criminal streak in them anyway, regardless.
As for the 'uprising' - poverty, ghettos - weak social standing, it all adds up to uprising. Everywhere. Always. Unless you live in a country with a dictator regime. That went on in the U.S. when the blacks rose up,that almost rose up here in Israel as well: the Black Panthers mean anything to you?
So, in this context I think it's irrelevant if they're muslims, christians, jews or whatever - It seems to be a side-effect of carelessly non-planning while taking immigrants (or foreign workers) in. My best example stays the Netherlands, because that's where I know most about but not all of course, and I can tell you that the first stream of immigrants from Turkey, Morocco etc. were met with the greatest apathy, total disinterest "you are you and we are we and we don't mix" kinda behaviour. What do you expect then really? That they'd feel "integrated" ?
Still I think Israel cannot say anything at all, if it is to keep up personal freedom of worship. Jewish religious women may wear wigs for the most part (which is wrong halachanitically speaking but soit) but they cover their heads just the same. Not to speak about the black undertakers outfit of jewish religious men...
Luckily enough at least this doesn't form a problem in Israel, and I would very much like to keep it that way, thankyouverymuch.
In the Netherlands the 'not wanting to shake hands' seems to bring up a very vocal discussion. When I first heard of it I sat with my mouth open of surprise. They weren't kidding *_*
Something so trivial is being made into a prototype 'problem with muslims' -
Do they forget religious jewish men don't shake hands of women as well?
You can make a problem out of everything. (not you but in a manner of speaking) and I think that's exactly what anti-Islam politicians are doing in Europe, at least in NL. From there on forwards it's not such a long way to feel 'disintegrated'. What means integration anyway? That you have to melt away into the mainstream?
I don't think the example you gave is reflecting. I have no idea about Spain, but it serves logic to think that criminals will pop up from whatever population anyway, and they of course use the most tangible EXCUSE for their crimes: 'they' are doing us wrong - that doesn't mean to say that 'muslims' or 'egyptians' are disintegrated. That means that those individuals have a criminal streak in them anyway, regardless.
As for the 'uprising' - poverty, ghettos - weak social standing, it all adds up to uprising. Everywhere. Always. Unless you live in a country with a dictator regime. That went on in the U.S. when the blacks rose up,that almost rose up here in Israel as well: the Black Panthers mean anything to you?
So, in this context I think it's irrelevant if they're muslims, christians, jews or whatever - It seems to be a side-effect of carelessly non-planning while taking immigrants (or foreign workers) in. My best example stays the Netherlands, because that's where I know most about but not all of course, and I can tell you that the first stream of immigrants from Turkey, Morocco etc. were met with the greatest apathy, total disinterest "you are you and we are we and we don't mix" kinda behaviour. What do you expect then really? That they'd feel "integrated" ?
besides that I don't know to 'identify' arabs from jews or christians anyway, so I don't know how many of them go without scarf
depends .. i can distinguish between people .. in some cases with accuracy of 90% , in some 50 or less ... i can tell apart arabs from jews mostly ..
in fact i asked two arabs who have a makolet near my home if they are beduins and not jaffo arabs and they told me that their father is indeed beduin .. in 90% of the cases i can say if a person in a crowd is a russian jew .. with sepharadim i can tell apart people of yemenite background, north africa ... persians too ...
a lebanese blogger who's been here could identify with much more precision between sepharadim ...
why ?? you dont?
depends .. i can distinguish between people .. in some cases with accuracy of 90% , in some 50 or less ... i can tell apart arabs from jews mostly ..
in fact i asked two arabs who have a makolet near my home if they are beduins and not jaffo arabs and they told me that their father is indeed beduin .. in 90% of the cases i can say if a person in a crowd is a russian jew .. with sepharadim i can tell apart people of yemenite background, north africa ... persians too ...
a lebanese blogger who's been here could identify with much more precision between sepharadim ...
why ?? you dont?
Some people have 'characteristic' features and then I can tell. But 99% of the people: no.
The truth is also that it doesn't interest me that much, 'what' someone is, but more 'who' - so I guess that's why I never 'paid attention', probably....
The truth is also that it doesn't interest me that much, 'what' someone is, but more 'who' - so I guess that's why I never 'paid attention', probably....
but basically you are right .. if you see a woman covered from head to toes in a piece of thick black cloth, it's usually a muslim woman ... the chances are slim that she is christian or something :D :D
:D :D
:D :D
Nobody said...
what's about ethiopian jews ?? :D :D
:D :D
I guess they're Ethiopian, but I had a Nigerian friend and honesty I don't see difference. Obviously skincolors differ, but which country someone is from I can't see.
what's about ethiopian jews ?? :D :D
:D :D
I guess they're Ethiopian, but I had a Nigerian friend and honesty I don't see difference. Obviously skincolors differ, but which country someone is from I can't see.
really ??? i think they are very different !!!
i thought it's impossible to confuse ethiopians with anybody else, for sure not with nigerians ...
ethiopians are a kind of slender and slim ... many look simply fragile ... they have a certain grace in their movements, girls in particular ...
nigerians are like more massive, more powerful, strong energy...
i thought it's impossible to confuse ethiopians with anybody else, for sure not with nigerians ...
ethiopians are a kind of slender and slim ... many look simply fragile ... they have a certain grace in their movements, girls in particular ...
nigerians are like more massive, more powerful, strong energy...
the thing is that it's precisely two groups of people that i like most to watch ... ethiopians and west africans ... i also used to go to reggae parties where there is usually a mixed crowd of them ... in my neighborhood there are many of both ...
ethiopian girls are beautiful... long necked, very gentle faces .. they move like .. in their own way ....
in my neighborhood there are also nigerians and others from the same region ... their young men have absolutely different body structure than say israelis or the same ethiopians .. they can wear a t-shirt and you think it's just a regular guy, but when they start pulling their t-shirts off on parties you see that they have an absolutely stunning musculature ... it's a different kind of power ... the tel avivans are usually go to gyms where they got inflated ... they become inflexible, they move like blocks ...they seem a sort of compressed inside their muscle mass ... you see that it's somebody who puts himself daily through a series of monotonous exercises that make both body and mind dumb ... nigerians are like vibrant and buoyant, very different ...
they move differently .. ethiopians are more like floating when they are dancing ... nigerians are a sort of jumpy ...i can tell them apart even by the way they dance ....
ethiopian girls are beautiful... long necked, very gentle faces .. they move like .. in their own way ....
in my neighborhood there are also nigerians and others from the same region ... their young men have absolutely different body structure than say israelis or the same ethiopians .. they can wear a t-shirt and you think it's just a regular guy, but when they start pulling their t-shirts off on parties you see that they have an absolutely stunning musculature ... it's a different kind of power ... the tel avivans are usually go to gyms where they got inflated ... they become inflexible, they move like blocks ...they seem a sort of compressed inside their muscle mass ... you see that it's somebody who puts himself daily through a series of monotonous exercises that make both body and mind dumb ... nigerians are like vibrant and buoyant, very different ...
they move differently .. ethiopians are more like floating when they are dancing ... nigerians are a sort of jumpy ...i can tell them apart even by the way they dance ....
Reggae parties?
Tony Ray? You too? :D :D :D
If so maybe we've met one time, LOL. Though for me it's quite long ago again... Damn do I miss those times :(
Tony Ray? You too? :D :D :D
If so maybe we've met one time, LOL. Though for me it's quite long ago again... Damn do I miss those times :(
Tsedek, here they are called the Naigeschmeckte ["came as guests and stayed" in the sense of a undesired adventitious cause].
And in the case of socioligsts there are quite old connections between Israel and Germany. I can tell you why! [This IS a joke] Cause we love peolple like Lev Grinberg [Humphrey - Ben Gurion] for their political work ["Israels state terrorsim" - 2002]
Serious: It makes sense, cause both countries had to immigrate ... russians.
And in the case of socioligsts there are quite old connections between Israel and Germany. I can tell you why! [This IS a joke] Cause we love peolple like Lev Grinberg [Humphrey - Ben Gurion] for their political work ["Israels state terrorsim" - 2002]
Serious: It makes sense, cause both countries had to immigrate ... russians.
tsedek
you absolutely shocked me with the ethiopian jews .. i am still recovering from this :D :D
:D :D
the thing is that they have this, you know, type... very typical .. of course they have variations, but probably 50% of them have this type of slim neck, an elongated oval shaped head and big eyes .. they simply look like aliens from science fiction movies ... very funny ... i was sure everybody noticed this :D :D
:D :D
you absolutely shocked me with the ethiopian jews .. i am still recovering from this :D :D
:D :D
the thing is that they have this, you know, type... very typical .. of course they have variations, but probably 50% of them have this type of slim neck, an elongated oval shaped head and big eyes .. they simply look like aliens from science fiction movies ... very funny ... i was sure everybody noticed this :D :D
:D :D
Shual :D :D
How many Russian immigrants does Germany count? And, what about East-German immigrants (which, after the reunion can't be called immigrants I suppose) ?
Nobody c'mon man :D I got this Ethiopian busdriver (I know he's Ethiopian because he speaks amahari) who looks like 2 drops of water like a famous american model/singer (whose name just escaped me) - So, hardly 'typical' - and he's got a "elongated oval shaped head and big eyes" :D (infact, i shouldn't be talking like this because I'm supposed to be an 'old lady' but...... he's gorgeous :D )
How many Russian immigrants does Germany count? And, what about East-German immigrants (which, after the reunion can't be called immigrants I suppose) ?
Nobody c'mon man :D I got this Ethiopian busdriver (I know he's Ethiopian because he speaks amahari) who looks like 2 drops of water like a famous american model/singer (whose name just escaped me) - So, hardly 'typical' - and he's got a "elongated oval shaped head and big eyes" :D (infact, i shouldn't be talking like this because I'm supposed to be an 'old lady' but...... he's gorgeous :D )
Since 90 about 2.4 Million [incl. ca. 100 000 jewish]. Migration EastGermany into WestGermany: http://www.foerderland.de/uploads/tx_abfachbeitraege/berlin_institut4_1.jpg
Just today, my Israeli friend said how she did not want to live side by side with Arabs and that only people who are similar should live together. I was very disappointed. It just goes to show that terrorism has produced more hate and no solutions.
# posted by 
: 8:25 a.m.
: 8:25 a.m.
actually, that's brilliant. Thank you. I'm going to pass that on to a couple of people.
# posted by : 9:20 p.m.
: 9:20 p.m.
actually, that's brilliant. Thank you. I'm going to pass that on to a couple of people.
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# posted by : 9:03 p.m.
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