vrijdag, september 07, 2007

 

BethLehem or Lehem. . . ?

As I got out of the bus bringing me to the trainstation where I was to meet Yaeli for a socializing meeting in an area that was least problematic for people belonging to two peoples in one land separated by a complexity of the consequences of misuse by extremists/political greed to meet, the sign on the crossroad:

over 1 million people silently suffer from hunger

caught my eye in such manner that it follows me through the whole sequence of events and thoughts about it that led up until writing about this meeting just now and made it hard for me to do so (the writing) because it plays such a huge part in it - for me.....

Dalia made a dazzling 'come-back' at the gnblog after a break - by simply inviting whoever was interested to meet in 2 days time. ("action speaks louder than words" was the first thing that entered my head - click here to listen)

Many were interested, few were able to come due to a variety of reasons. In the end, Yehuda (who I am ashamed never noticed before virtually - sorry Yehuda!), Yaeli (who I only knew of that she was the same person from her blog step by step as the Yaeli from gn when I saw her - sorry Yaeli!), obviously (but not that obviously considering the difficulties of being mobile in the region where she's living) Dalia, Ramzi (the only one I 'know' rather long, I think 2 years, Ramzi?) and me - were able to make it.

After meeting with Yehuda and his lovely daughter and having a 'stop-over' at his also very lovely home in Jerusalem, we were on our way (me totally confused, hahaaa... it was okay to enter with a car with an Israeli license plate, but it was not advisable to walk around with a kipa, LOL) - to a meeting that as far as I can feel it is the kind of meeting that many are trying hard to prevent - by both Israel's government with it's stigmatizing separation policy and Palestinian extremists who don't like to leave a chance to misuse good intentions unused. Just imagine, that Israeli's will find out that regular Palestinians are just people like everyone else and no murdering terrorists and Palestinians will find out regular Israeli's don't approve of humiliating them and don't think themselves worth more than the Palestinians.

The meeting up at a road in (what they say, but I have no knowledge of geographical surroundings anyway) Gilo was -to me- HILARIOUS. Sad, if you think it was necessary, but sometimes the absurd makes me focus on the ridiculous side of it more, and has me in stitches. I truely felt as in a James Bond movie.... meticulously warding off anyone who might get an air of our 'secret mission' - LOL.

Of the meeting at the restaurant you can read in Yehuda's blog. It was nice, I felt totally at ease (which made me feel at unease, because I usually feel at ease everywhere and with everybody and afterwards have people tell me "but didn't you notice this?" "or that?" - which I haven't... but I pushed that away and relied on my gut feelings). Still I think we must have looked out of the regular there. I went to the restroom inside the restaurant and a group of men sitting there abruptly stopped their conversation when I walked by and looked at me euuhmmm. . . 'with great interest' - must have been my dazzling appearance for sure LOL - (this is a joke).

Yehuda also writes about the meeting at Ramzi's home, but my feelings about it are different. When Ramzi's father began telling about the humiliations he encountered for going to the city that his family has lived and/or worked in - I started to feel guilty. Why would I, definitely having my roots in the Netherlands although feeling completely Israeli after 30 years here, be able to visit that city freely and he not? To be quite honest, I would trade this 'freedom' without a moment's hesitation for being able to live in a wonderful house with a view in where I seem to disappear completely, relaxing me totally and get out of this stressed shamble of an appartment near the biggest highway in Ramat Gan - But, that's not the point. They must have worked hard for it and made the right decisions, which latter I am guilty of not having done....

There have been many instances on -mostly Dutch but also Lebanese- forums in which I was asked the question if I don't feel guilty 'stealing land from the original inhabitants' - and my reaction has always been (and will stay because I can't relate to outsiders sticking their nose in as if they're angels and I am the devil while I think they should first stick their hands into their own bossoms) very firmly: NO. Actually, I still think I'm not stealing land..... however to stand in front of a man personally, eye to eye, and as a relatively newcomer being able to move freely on the land his family lived on for ages while he can't, makes you feel guilty. It makes me feel guilty anyway. (and yes, I know: security, shooting in one's own foot, blablabla.... it all flushes down the drain when not talking politics but from man to man - and that should be the basic point. After all, everybody 'speaking for us' should be doing so for 'us' right? 'The" man....

We were given hospitality and friendliness that I recognize from my in-laws: arab. Afterwards I didn't feel comfortable with it - because this is not a matter of 'how much money one has' (no-one is obligated to spend that money on a bunch of total strangers - meaning not family or long-time friends, or on whatever one decides one wants to spend their money on) - but on manners I have come to feel familiar with, although not -as I wrote- comfortable. But, I accept.

Still.............. considering this and the sign of hungry people I spoke of in my opening (lehem in hebrew means bread) - here comes my integrated impression and conclusion which takes on the form of a question..

Why and how can a people of which 1/7th live in such poverty that they hardly have anything to eat - leave alone the humiliation of their children not being able to adventure into the same opportunities people with money are given in this country - hold on to a principle and not to the 'facts on the ground' - being: the demand and insisting on a respectful daily life, being given the same chances everyone else are given and the same quality of life - for the sake of it being called a 'jewish home'? What is this home if you don't have what to eat? Last night I saw in the news a mother living in a tent, having her son in a fighting unit in the IDF (meaning that, comes time, he will have to put his life in danger defending the 'jewish homeland') while his mother lives in a tent and when he's having his 'after' - he's sleeping in a tent????????

Excuse me.... I'm confused. I am very much for a jewish homeland, seen the facts on the ground that so many israeli's are born here and this is their homeland - and comparing the map of probable discrimination grounds (being jewish) - to the rest of the middle east - but I ask, sincerely (!) ask: what for in heaven's name? To have nothing to eat? To gamble on your children's life for what exactly? To make the life of people like Ramzi's father unbearable, come home and have no place to sleep - see your mother suffer in a tent?

I am for one fed up being led into false pretences: sure - there are extremists out there that want to see the 'jewish homeland' destroyed - but, what will they destroy? The fridge that's empty? The tent a soldier's mother, father and siblings is living in? Or the economy of Israel only the 18 families that are in charge of this country are relying on??

sorry, getting emotional.... gotta stop. I sure haven't got this experience integrated in the overall picture yet as can be noted -


Although you'd think this is my first 'experience' out 'in the territories' - it is not..... that's why I'm even surprised at myself, my good friends from Gaza that were here and with me before the IntifadaII I've lost contact with and they lived in a refugee camp - still.... those times were different: they could leave their children at my place and I could visit them without a hesitation. Was a solution too close in which power could be lost for the infuential then??

Tse.




Comments:
Tsedek, thank you for your moving post. I was last night looking at the map again. This is what I do when I get discouraged with where I am and want a change and when the world out there seems so inequitable and unfair. Looking for paradise, and not finding it. I am desperately sick of the world's leaders who obviously do not regard the well-being of their own people or "others" as a priority. I wonder what those of us who are concerned can do. I try not to get discouraged and to have faith that the small actions of good people like Dalia, Yaeli, Yehuda, Ramzi and others (like all the wonderful authors on GN Blog, for example) will have a positive effect. With kind regards, lynne
 
Any photos of the get-together,Tse?
 
tsedek, I found your account moving in a rather personal way. I can perhaps understand better now why israel takes pains to prevent too many visits by israelis to the territories. many might just end up with similar feelings to yours. Perhaps that's good for the people, but for some reason the government they elected is off on its own merry way somewhere else.
 
Tsedek ya tsedek... :)

Israel has tremendous social mobility. The absolute majority of the poor can become middle class within half a year. All it takes is some effort, not spewing forth 1+ offspring every 9 months and a bit of perseverance. Doesn't sound impossible to me... in fact, I went from being well below the poverty line to being well above the average income within a year. A number of times, actually. And I know many others who did the same.

And to actually go hungry in Israel one has to try hard. It takes some serious talent for messing up your life.


And the bizzare paranoia about the Israeli government... do you honestly believe that your government is evilly preventing you from meeting Palestinians so that you would hate them?

I'm sorry, but this is, frankly, totally insane. Have you been reading too much Finkelstein and Chomsky or watching too much Al-Manar and Al-Jazeera?
 
I do agree with Raccoon that the Israeli government is NOT trying to keep Israeli citizens from meeting Palestinians in order to foster suspicion and hate. I see the difficulty in traveling as a function of bureaucracy and security measures--and in fact, considering the security situation, Israel allows more travel back and forth than other countries would under similar circumstances. My understanding is that your group of Israelis returning from Bethlehem to Israel had a rather easy entrance in spite of being in a car with a Palestinian with Palestinian plates on the car. At other times it seems that Palestinians are subjected to long delays, unreasonable delays and humiliation. I agree that should never, ever occur.
I am discouraged with the ineptitude of the world's leaders, those in Israel included, but like Raccoon, I suspect no plot to keep Israeli citizens and Palestinians from getting to know each other. Before security concerns became so great, the two groups used to visit back and forth, sharing the beaches in Israel and forming friendships.
Tsedek, I greatly appreciate the main message of your post that friendship and dialogue across borders is possible and desirable. Lynne
 
G. - I did make photos but they didn't succeed. Besides I don't like my photo being up on the internet and also wouldn't put that of someone else up without their permission ;-)
I hope you can understand.

Lynne & Raccoon - No. I don't think conspiracy-wise about preventing Palestinians and Israelis to meet - (I don't believe in conspiracies, fullstop) - but it is the result of what's going on.

I just read interviews with youth in Gaza and most have never seen an Israeli other than a settler or a soldier (both carrying weapons), that's sad I think.

Raccoon you're a young man with skills living in the center of this country. There are hundreds of thousands of people living in the peripheria and not having any professional skills. They are stuck - their children are stuck... Did you know that Israel is #2 on the list of 'civiized' (whatever that may mean) countries that have the highest rate of poverty? Straight after the U.S. who's #1. Maybe you are not looking well enough, but here, all around me, I see people digging in garbage and walking in the streets looking for empty bottles to sell back. You can imagine what it's like in places where there are no work opportunities at all?

People being put out of their houses because for unexpected expenses or change in their income they couldn't cough up the mortgages anymore and the punitive interest rates make it impossible to ever catch on when their situation improves? I distinctly remember a news item on tv of a family with a BABY for crying out loud having been put in the street. Did you ever hear of Kikar Halechem??

Dana it just makes me sad to see that the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor and who is always the victim (on both 'sides') are the poor - and that makes me really, really - really very mad. Not being able to meet also means that you are not able to find points of recognition in one another and see that the majority of people in their basic needs and dreams of the future, don't differ that much, actually.

Lynne the car that took us back to Jerusalem had Israeli license plates on it. The driver lives in Gilo but his wife and baby live in another village in 'the territories' - that's why he cannot see them more than once in a few months. Ridiculous, no? And, you should have seen his body language: "that's life in this country" - he said .
 
Tsedek, thanks for the correction and information. It is going to take people on all sides willing to do what they can to make changes, and you are doing that. I'd like to investigate ways to improve the situation and the lives of people in Israel (stuck in poverty) and those in the territories. I am teacher in the US, and I know how difficult it is to help people make positive changes --for a number of reasons, all very frustrating and recalcitrant. ---lynne
 
Hi, we have the confirmation: An average of 3 Million at market share of 16% watched the [dissapointing Israeli team in germany. Quite a success [for me as predictor :-))]

The most of them slept very well.
 
Hundreds of Dutch Israelis, some of whom have been living in the Jewish state for more than 30 years, were accidentally wiped off the National Insurance Institute's computer database last week following a technical glitch, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

"Since last Tuesday we have been receiving complaints from our members that they were suddenly notified by the NII that they were no longer recognized as Israeli citizens and were not eligible for social security benefits or health insurance," said Hanoch Weisberg, head of the Dutch Immigrant Organization in Israel, which represents more than 1,400 former residents of the Netherlands.

. . .

. . .

Source

That's it, Tsedek. You can go back to your Netherlands.
 
The Raccoon said...

Tsedek ya tsedek... :)

Israel has tremendous social mobility. The absolute majority of the poor can become middle class within half a year.


raccoon

the poverty statistics are manipulated by the media and the socially oriented Left and so the picture of poverty you and most Israelis have has no relation to the reality.

The poverty in the mainstream Israeli society had been steadily decreasing over the last years. Heart breaking stories you see on TV notwithstanding, in the mainstream Jewish sector there is much less poverty than a few years ago. In fact this year the poverty decreased in absolute terms for the whole of population.

What does exist is the poverty in the arab and ultra orthodox sector. In fact, technically speaking there was probably no increase in poverty at all but the number of poor went up because of the demographic explosion in both sectors. Together both sectors account for 80-90% of the poor. Given that the ultra orthodox and beduins have a fertility rate of between 7 to 10 children, not only they are poor but they are expanding demographically dragging the rest of the country down in terms of poverty statistics. Add to this that the ultra orthodox refuse to integrate and teach their children sciences and that the Arab communities are universally heavily corrupt preventing creation of efficient mechanisms to channel funds into this sector.

But if you talk about normal population, means secular and traditional Israelis who don't refuse to work or study, then there has been a steady decline of poverty in this sector for years.

maybe i will write one day a post about this . but you can take a look into the poverty data by yourself, you will see that the situation has absolutely no relation to how the media and the leftists interpret it.
 
i should probably add that the poverty line is not something absolute .. it's calculated based on national averages.. this means that if say there is a strong growth in the hitech or some other sector it automatically raises national averages and moves a few thousands people on the low end below poverty line without the those experiencing any real change in their situation ...


to understand what's happening with poverty in absolute terms one needs to fix the poverty line to say, the year 2002, and then compare the situation in 2007 to this level and not to the poverty line that was calculated in 2007... without this the whole hysteria around the poverty is more like a cat chasing its own tail since the poverty data reflects more the distribution of incomes inside the society rather than the absolute poverty
 
Nobody not everybody is young, intelligent, physically capable, living in the right towns, etc. etc.

besides: what the F* does it matter whose child it is? A CHILD IS A CHILD!!! A "civilized" society distinction itself from others based on their revacha for ALL its citizens. Especially those that cannot 'keep up' the standards this society is demanding in order to barely hold on to the minimum of a decent life.

Anyway, you're WAY off, read the following article and see for yourself:

href="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3261769,00.html"

================

Shual, I knew they would lose. If they would have won, I think that could have been seen as a surprise...
 
Well, Tsedek... the "Sauerkraut-Strategy" of the coaches, to reach some german soccer-virtues via german imports must be blamed for the spiritless performance we saw.

But on the other side, I have learned that an Israeli national-team-player is playing in germany at a second-league club. I think he is the first one playing in professional soccer in germany.

"The fans of Gladbach are very sad that THEIR Israeli can not play and they are eager to see him play for his team." [My favorite phrase of the coverage.]
 
Tsedek said...

Nobody not everybody is young, intelligent, physically capable, living in the right towns, etc. etc.

besides: what the F* does it matter whose child it is?


tsedek ...

i dont know if it matters or not but the israeli government has been for years subsidizing fertility rates in the arab and ultra orthodox sectors .. in fact it has created the situation in which making more children has turned into a way of life based on state provided welfare ... it's only when netanyahu cut down on child pensions that the arab birth rates started coming down ... this did not happen in the ultra orthodox sector but the work force participation in this sector has certainly increased ... the poverty in the ultra orthodox and arab sectors was created by the demographic explosion for which the socialist policies you argue for were directly responsible ...
 
by the way tsedek

your link is broken .. here is the correct one

and by the way in his another article the same Plocker gives a much more detailed analysis of the poverty, even though his conclusions and practical advises are as wrong and impractical as always ...

In the overall count of poor people the findings are even more extreme: The percentage of Arab citizens is nearing 50 percent of the overall poor population in Israel as opposed to 40 percent in 2004. This is the outcome of demographics: The poor Arab family comprises more than five members: The Jewish family comprises more than three members.

. . .

The Arab face of poverty is also evident in the unexpected growth in the percentage of poor families with a single breadwinner. Analysis of the poverty report shows that although the head of the family is employed it does not lift the family above the poverty line; it only changes his or her registered status – from receiving an allowance to being employed.


the last one is just a result of the arab practice to lock their women at home ... if the arabs make more children and then expect a father alone to somehow feed his offspring, the decision is that of the arabs .. but in no way israelis have to be held morally responsible for the poverty that results ...

but there is one thing that he got very right in his article and it's this:

We can continue ignoring the figures and continue showing the worn out images of long lines of people waiting for food packages in Jewish communities. But this is a pretense. Poverty among the Jewish population in Israel, which wasn't dramatic even two years ago, is gradually dropping. Arab poverty, which was tragic in the past, has already turned into a crisis.

Source

people who post this nonsense about poverty hit israel because there is something fundamentally wrong with the israeli society or economy, may think that they are doing a service to the poor, but in fact they only make things worse ... the poverty is concentrated in the ultra orthodox and arab sectors for reasons that are mostly not economical and not social, but cultural and religious ....they are not a result of oppression or exploitation ..

and the solutions required have nothing to do with making the normal israelis repay some debt they owe neither to the ultra orthodox nor to the arabs... and in terms of solutions the government first of all should impose on the ultra orthodox schools the curriculum accepted in normal state schools and stop this nonsense that the ultra orthodox are allowed to not study subjects they deem too secular or not religious enough .. since it's their children who on growing up later happened to be totally unprepared for taking up any profession ...

and in the arab sector the government should crack down on polygamy in the muslim sector as well as on the gangsterism among the beduins in negev, for some of whom robbery and theft is a way of life ...the government should increase police presence in negev and other areas and ensure that real women empowerment is enforced on this sector and so arab women can make their own decisions on whether and how many children to have and whether they should work or stay at home ...

and given how corrupt most of their municipalities are, before the government starts pouring money into their infrastructure and schools it should simply disband the most hopeless of the arab local authorities and establish a direct rule over these areas .. otherwise any money the well intentioned individuals want to inject into the arab sector will go down the tube as it has always done before ...

having said, i am fully aware that you like none of these measures, since admitting that the so called victims may have a responsibility for their situation is not part of your noble philosophy

shana tova
 
Nobody - now you are a person in Tel-Aviv with no specific qualifications in any profession and a wife (in the same situation) and 3 children.
Minimum wage is something like 3500 NIS. Renting a place costs $800-900... (not to talk about buying for which you need some own capital) -

What are you going to do?
 
I second everything Nobody said...

And would like to add that in order to actually starve in Israel, one would have to try very, very hard. It takes a kind of talent to ignore all the opportunities, alienate all your friends and family, fail to ask the countless charity organizations for help...

And if someone goes to all this trouble, who am I to stop them?
 
tsedek

i dont know if you have actual experience of poverty because what you write just does not make sense to me ... like raccoon i experienced the social mobility in israel on my skin ... i lived twice in extreme poverty and then recovered .. part of this has to do with me being an idiot .. partly it's a result of me being an immigrant from russia and my family is in russia and not here ... but i ended once sleeping for a week on a rooftop though this has nothing to do with the 18 families that you claim milk everybody and everything in this country ...

i did not have professional qualifications at the beginning ... i got my profession from the employment service .. they paid me for 3 months when i was waiting for my course, then 6 months while i studied and then another few months while i was looking for job .. i spent the whole that year on welfare !!! though i admit it was years ago and before netanyahu's reforms ...

and flats in tel aviv does not cost that much .. i came here from jerusalem two years ago.. i came with a partner, my friend and my former boss, after his company went bust .. we were both bankrupt .. but we rented for 650$ a big enough place of 60-70 meters in florentine ...

as to your example, one should be an idiot to make three children when neither him nor his wife have any profession and then come to live in tel aviv which is indeed an expensive place ... but to start with i dont understand this irrationality of making three children when you have no means to provide for them ...
 
of course if this couple is also dead set on having to live in north tel aviv then it greatly complicates the matters regarding the rent they will have to pay for their place .. but then why on earth two simple human beings can want to make their lives so complicated ???
 
Raccoon It takes a kind of talent to ignore all the opportunities, alienate all your friends and family, fail to ask the countless charity organizations for help...
of course. making use of charity organizations are a real swell way to tell that there is nothing wrong with the economic distribution in a country....

You wouldn't know how many people try and don't manage, Raccoon...

++++++++

Nobody i lived twice in extreme poverty and then recovered ..
But would you have recovered if you wouldn't possess any professional skills which pull you out of poverty with an above-average wages and you'd have a couple of children? You know what children cost? "Free education" is an illusion... I hope you realize that? Not being able to go on schooltrips happen often (more so outside of tel-aviv) and the humiliation those children that don't understand a thing about it must undergo tears me apart. You know how much a maon cost? Kindergarten? How much is minimum wages?

And ohhhh.... just imagine someone would like to live in a 'good neighborhood' where drugs and gangs don't rule the streets - just imagine they'd like to live in north tel-aviv so their children would receive the best education (simply proven) - that in your eyes is very impertinent, right? Darn those parents who want best for their children,grrrrr/

one should be an idiot to make three children when neither him nor his wife have any profession sure, Nobody - the most basic right that -luckily enough- no one can dictate you about, and is a God-given right for every couple to decide themselves, you'd like to tie to stupidness because of a failure of social welfare and normal human structure of employment strategies in where a minimum wages can supply the basic needs of the citizens in a country WITH or WITHOUT profession (you think university is enough to be kupaiet at the supersal or something?) who are WILLING TO WORK, but find that their income is by far not covering half of their expenses.
 
tsedek

you are just doing the same thing that your very plocker was warning against when he said:

We can continue ignoring the figures and continue showing the worn out images of long lines of people waiting for food packages in Jewish communities. But this is a pretense.


there is not so much poverty in the mainstream jewish sector and it's declining anyway .. the majority of these big poor families are arab, seconded by the ultras ... your example is simply irrelevant because it's unrepresentative of the most of the poor...

you can insist on these self suicidal policies and i know that you care for absolutely nothing ... jewish state, secular majority, our safe future, the future of your children living in their own state ... you care for none of this ...

but the thing is that we cannot allow anymore of your utopias because we are not going to remain the mainstream for long ...

it's enough to look at the statistics to see it... 1/3 of all schoolchildren are arabs .. another 1/3 are ultras ... with the current trends the arab share will decline, that of the ultras will rise ... but our share in the population will probably decline even more ...

and this is our future .. it's all over for us ... in the next decades we will be reduced to 25-30% of the population .. it's no longer possible that we will pay these people money to enable them to make more children ... 1/3 of the population cannot maintain 2/3's of the country ...

if we were reasonable people we would have been slapping fines on these people for wrecking themselves and our society with their insane reproduction habits.. just like the chinese did when in a decade they stopped this demographic madness by delisting anybody who exceeded children's quota from the list of recipients of social benefits ... because such people wreck themselves and destroy the society ...

but we are not reasonable people .. we are a secular culture of no-survival .. a culture that has no desire to live, to succeed or to win ... the only thing we produce recently is more loonies like you and lirun ... as the situation looks right now it's what you call this zealot religion, people who you claim you fight at home, who are going to take it .... our way is the way of the lebanese christians .. we are on the way out ... we cannot pay these people anymore for breeding us out because they got too successful with this ...

that's why all this nonsense you are posting on your blog about israeli arab co-existence is not relevant for us ... our future is all about the secular - ultra orthodox co-existence ... this is what's relevant for us, not the arabs ...

try to be reasonable tsedek ... i can't believe that a person can be so irrational .... you have something in your life apart from your emotions ???
 
your example is simply irrelevant because it's unrepresentative of the most of the poor...

what are you talking about Nobody ?
I work at a lawyers office for humanitiarian rights - you think that I don't know what I'm talking about?

you care for none of this ...

I care for a state that acts like it says that it is. a state for the people ALL people. justice, Nobody! Wellfare. Honesty. Not in a state where 18 families are like a clan and keep everything in their own hands and keep on getting richer and richer and fool us all, while Holocaust victims for instance live under the poverty line and are don't even have money to buy medicines or eyeglasses. Where -if I venture out of the house- I don't find old ladies plundering the garbage looking for something to eat or sell. Damned it, Nobody - how can I want a country like that for my children? What they are supposed to have hearts of stone? And what you hammer on about Arabs? They are not people? They don't deserve to live a dignified life having chances to work and maintain themselves?

I want a just society, Nobody - You are having and keeping your eyes closed.
 
it's no longer possible that we will pay these people money to enable them to make more children ... 1/3 of the population cannot maintain 2/3's of the country ...


so the 'resources' will have to give up on their high positions right? see if those 18 families are just as concerned about Israel as they are about their eternal getting fatter bank accounts.
 
You know why Shas was such a success even with the arabs, Nobody?
Not because everyone that sent their children to their Kindergartens were religious, honey. But because they offered a FREE education, schools, everything - instead of those youth hanging in the street - their parents not being able to pay for what sums 'regular' schools ask ...

Sure, secularism is dying in Israel and the only ones being guilty of that are the seculars. Because they have no heart.
 
try to be reasonable tsedek ... i can't believe that a person can be so irrational ..

irrational?? who's irrational here? you are!! you deny the existence of people and their right of living their lives as they find just. besides I was not talking about religious people. I was talking about families you seem not to see. secular/traditional families - having nothing with 'the religious' but you downright deny many live in poverty because the system is set up like that that they don't get a chance to work themselves out of it.

And yes, I am fully against forced upon me religion. I am against them forcing their interpretation of how I should live upon me. However, nobody I'm fair enough not to expect the other way around from them as well: why the hell should they live according to what I think is right how they should live?
 
you have some unreasonable expectations from these 18 or god knows how many families .. the rich don't spend most of their money on themselves .. most of their money is invested in the economy .. what you take from their account or what they invest back into their companies you have to return back if you want the economy to grow and workplaces to be created ... because this money is what keeps the economy going ... as to what they spend on themselves it's not that much to provide for social programs ...

that's why it's the middle class that provides the bulk of taxation in all countries ...because the middle class spends a larger share of its income on its own consumption ... so you can take this part without slowing down the economy ...
 
And yes, I am fully against forced upon me religion. I am against them forcing their interpretation of how I should live upon me. However, nobody I'm fair enough not to expect the other way around from them as well: why the hell should they live according to what I think is right how they should live?

tsedek

i dont know what's so difficult to understand ... there is a saying in russian: the good should have firm fists ... it means the good should know to fight for itself, it should know to care for itself .. no one needs this good if it cannot assure its own existence ...

from my point of view you dont represent anything good .. i see you more like a neurosis ...but even if i assume that there is something in what you say, if you cannot ensure that you and your approach and the culture your represent remain a mainstream then it should go ... not a big deal for me ...

you can talk to me until you are blue in the face about the sudanese refugees, human rights of the arabs ... but i see first of all that all their countries are shit .. they have civil wars everywhere ... so before you let these sudanese refugees in i want to hear about the risks ... i want to hear about my security .. about the security of people i know , my friends ... i want to hear about the jewish majority in this country .. i am not a cannot fodder for your utopias or justice or the rights of people you define as victims ... and i have never heard anything in this sense from you and other 'peace' bloggers ...

that's why i dont even care so much for secularism .. i can live under the ultra orthodox .. ok .. the public transport may not work on weekend ... so what ??? at least i will know that people like you and others are marginalized and pushed into irrelevance because right now i see this insanity in the media and everywhere ..

in fact i am not the only secular who thinks like this ... maybe it does not make me happy that the culture and the sector i belong to makes me feel so uneasy and endangered ... but that's the situation .. and this is what i hear all around ...

for me it's a simple matter ... if this culture does not want to ensure its domination of the country because arabs and ultra orthodox have the right to make as many children as they wish and we have only the obligation to support them, then it's ok ... the secular majority will go ... from my point of view if that's the case it should go .. it does not have the right to exist .. and i am not going to shed tears for it ... in fact the sooner it happens, the better
 
for me it's a simple matter ... if this culture does not want to ensure its domination of the country because arabs and ultra orthodox have the right to make as many children as they wish and we have only the obligation to support them, then it's ok ... the secular majority will go ... from my point of view if that's the case it should go .. it does not have the right to exist .. and i am not going to shed tears for it ... in fact the sooner it happens, the better

i mean only the ultra orthodox of course .. i do fucking mind to suddenly find myself in the middle of another lebanon or iraq or sudan :D :D

if the ulras are going to take it over, it's ok with me ... we won't have gay parades in the center of jerusalem .. heart breaking but i think i can manage it :D :D

:D :D
 
well so far for accusing me of being emotional, hey Nobody? Your reactions here give the impression you are very emotional about the whole subject as well.

btw, do you realize what you say about the ultra-religious? Fergie - you know that sexy singer of the Black Eyed Peas - was cut out of the posters announcing their concert in Jerusalem...

You do NOT have to go overboard - ya know :D
 
i can live under the ultra orthodox .. ok .. the public transport may not work on weekend ... so what ??? at least i will know that people like you and others are marginalized and pushed into irrelevance

I advise you to take a few days and start listening to radio Kol Chai... if you will then think my humanist foundations are not expressed there, call me a pig.
 
Tsedek said...

well so far for accusing me of being emotional, hey Nobody? Your reactions here give the impression you are very emotional about the whole subject as well.


no emotions tsedek ... this is what i think .. and not only me ...

i am not really impressed with your stories and kol hai .. i am from jerusalem, the first city that will go to the ultras and it will happen soon... i know who are these people
 
the ultra's are a tiny slice of the society. i'm talking about 'normal' religious...
 
dunno tsedek where you get your notions from .. you claim that you care for poverty but the only aspects of poverty that seem to be of interest to you are those that allow you to claim moral high ground by confessions our collective sins for all of us ... anything practically related to poverty seems to be of no interest to you

the ultras are not a tiny slice of the population ... in fact the whole scandal around their education started after it became known that by 2012 1/3 of jewish students will learn in haredi schools .... by 2020 the ultras will account for 40-50% of jewish studenst, 20% of the population and 1/4 of the jewish sector...

given that the vast majority of all jewish poor belongs to this sector there is an understanding that something should be done with their education to force them to teach sciences to their children .. if they were a tiny slice the government would have simply sent police to their ghettos to enforce compliance but it cannot do it because they are anything but a tiny slice
 
what do you call bar ilan university?
 
tsedek

what difference what i call them makes? they have all kinds of people ... i don't know exactly who is who there .. i assume that many should be close to religious zionism ... actually they have even secular people teaching there ...
 
actually i got a bit carried away with my data ... by 2020 and they are expected to reach 17% .. so move estimates a few years away .. say 2025 ...
Haredim are set to account for a majority of Jews in the UK and US by the second half of the century, according to new research by a British academic.

University of Manchester historian Dr. Yaakov Wise says the increase in Britain's ultra-religious Jewry has now reversed the decline in the overall Jewish population, which he says has been shrinking by 1 to 2 percent per year since the 1950s.

According to Wise, Europe's haredi population is growing more rapidly than at any time since before WWII. Almost three out of every four British Jewish births, he says, are ultra-Orthodox, and the community now accounts for around 45,500, or 17 percent, of a total UK Jewish population of around 275,000.

"If current trends continue there is going to be a profound cultural and political change among British and American Jews, and it's already well on the way," Wise says. "This is in spite of demographic studies which show that the non-ultra-Orthodox Jewish population is flat or falling."

"My work, and that of Prof. Sergio Della Pergola [of the Hebrew University], reveal a similar picture in Israel. By the year 2020, the ultra-Orthodox population of Israel will double to one million and make up 17% of the total population. A recent Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics report also found that a third of all Jewish students will be studying at haredi schools by 2012, prompting emergency meetings at the Education Ministry," Wise says.

Source

when they say schoolchildren i think they mean elementary schools .. i think it should be the first 6 grades ...
 
this is dellapergola ... the year 2005

By the year 2020, the haredi population of Israel will double to 1 million and make up 17 percent of the total population, said Hebrew University demographer Professor Sergio DellaPergola Tuesday.

DellaPergola, who belongs to the Department of Contemporary Jewry and the Institute for Jewish People Policy Planning, spoke at the Knesset's Interior and Environmental Affairs Committee.

The committee discussed the need for city planning that takes into consideration the haredi public.

Mayors and heads of city councils from Beitar Ilit, Bnei Brak, Beit Shemesh and other haredi towns who attended the committee said that the state had not allotted enough land for housing nor had it supplied sufficient infrastructure for religious services and education.

DellaPergola said that presently the haredi public made up about 11% of the Jewish population in Israel, or 550,000 individuals.

DellaPergola's estimate conflicts with a Central Bureau of Statistics survey released last week that estimated the haredi population to be just 8% of the population, or 420,000 adults.

"Unlike the CBS, which based its data on peoples' self-definition, I factored in other variables such as voting habits," said DellaPergola.

Every city in which more than 70% of the citizens voted for one of the haredi political parties, including Shas, was considered entirely haredi. However, DellaPergola assumed that a certain percentage of Shas voters were not haredi, rather traditional.

DellaPergola also assumed that the haredi population had more children per family.

Haredi families average 6.5 children, compared to a national Jewish average of 2.6 children.

"Still, these patterns will not continue indefinitely," said DellaPergola. "So it is difficult to forecast when the haredi population will become a majority."

Source

 
view here

you'd like to tell me religious people don't study there? why do you keep hammering on the 'ultra-religious'?

what do you expect? on one side they're good for the demographic balance (arab israelis overall still get more children than jewish israelis) but on the other hand they shouldn't demand too much?

to tell the truth I don't know if it is investigated or not, but I see A LOT of secular jews chozriem ba-tshuva the last couple of years. do you think it has anything to do with the hard reality (which you deny) we live in here?
 
i don't hammer on the ultra religious ... i certainly prefer them to the arabs and probably even to the people of your views ... i think it's better for israel if leftists and liberals are neutralized/balanced out by them since in my view they plainly have more common sense .. at least their self preservation instincts are intact and they have something with the order of responsibilities ... there will be less danger that the politicians will suddenly flood the country with thousands of african muslims ...

my point is that they create poverty because of their unrestrained population growth and even more because of their education ... in terms of poverty this is one single most important factor of poverty in the jewish sector .. those of their young who switch sides and move to live in the secular sector seem to be lacking absolutely any general knowledge, practical or professional skills .. it looks like they teach only religion there ...

i dont know all the details of the latest mess around their education but i understand that they refuse to incorporate even mathematics and english into their curriculum ...
 
a few days ago i met a couple of friends i have not seen for a while .. and yes they are on the way there ... keeping shabbat.. considering full tshuva ...

people you would never believe ... she is a shiatzu practitioner .. chinese medicine, reiki and similar stuff ... they are not poor ... they have a family business .. she has her clients .... it has nothing to with poverty for them ...

i indeed dont see and feel so much of harsh reality .... not among my friends and people i know .. we were all eating shit a few years ago .. i was working at almost minimum wage at the business of that friend of mine who came with me to tel aviv .. then his business collapsed ... all people i knew worked in shit .. then within one-two years after bibi we all have found normal jobs .. everybody is ok now .. but people i know they are middle class mostly ...

among the poor i know one single mother with a daughter .. she is milking her ex and partying in haoman .. refuses to work ... had one thousand and one offers and rejected them all because she says she wants to spend more time with her daughter ... she was indeed hit by cuts and went to live with her mother .. i heard a few days ago that she finally started working ....

that arab friend of mine has a salon in jerusalem .. he says the place is finally full.. people dont spare money on hairdressers these days ...

i see quite a lot of something resembling what you say in my neighborhood ... people scavenging in wastebins or sleeping on the street .. surprisingly 99% are from my community .. it's some section of russian immigration that completely crashed ... but they are all on drugs .. or better the older ones are of the type common in russia, people who drink their soul out .. alcoholism .. the younger ones seem to be all on heroin ... scary .. i never give them money when they ask because i know they are just looking to buy a doze ... if i see them searching for food in a wastebin then i give them here and there money ...

but to get them out of this shit you need something more than social policies .. you should simply use force .. i bet many of them have no intention to leave drags ... if they are caught stealing they may agree for treatment .. otherwise they simply go to jail .... but when it's finished many of them are back to this shit .. i knew two people like this ... one of them is no longer a friend .. he is finished ... this drag is too strong ... most people who get hooked on it are probably lost ...
 
a few days ago there was a mother on tv that had lost her husband in a terror attack a few years ago. she was standing in the line for free food at a soup kitchen. this was before the holidays. her daughter was standing there with her. she was working and couldn't pay all expense and still have money to eat. no drugs. working and not making enough money.
how did you do on minimum wage? could you manage? could you manage if you'd had to pay kindergarten en all expenses related to children to give them a safe home?
I really wonder why can't you lay the connection between the (minimum) wages not being enough compared to the cost of living here?
 
how did you do on minimum wage? could you manage? could you manage if you'd had to pay kindergarten en all expenses related to children to give them a safe home?

as one who lived once on the minimum wage and who is now living on anything but minimum :D :D i can explain you ... i also lived at that time in katamon jerusalem which is like shkhuinat atikva of jerusalem ..

first of all you try not to live on the minimum wage .. you are just keep looking for another job .. those who want take courses from the employment office to get some profession .. in fact, i dont know if its true now, but years ago you could take a course every three years .. given that such a course can last from 6 to 9 months some people used them as a form of vacation because they pay you at that time .. at least this was common among russians :D :D

now you take a very far fetched example of a couple that never had any profession, then made three children and finally moved to north tel aviv to ensure the best education for their children .. the thing is that people capable of doing such a shit to their children :D :D usually dont care for their education .. so they live in shitty places and grow their children on the street :D :D

if you talk about arabs or beduins whom i know better .. they have their own way of life .. they usually live in their own homes .. dont pay arnona .. beduins actually pay nothing ...they steal everything from water to electricity and live in tents .. that minimum wage that beduins i worked with used to make they simply stored it in some pitfall because they had no use for it :D :D ... also in their places the stuff costs less ...

if you ask about the ultras who i also know from jerusalem :D :D .. here the situation looks like this .. the father usually does not work because he is immersed into pursuing jewish spiritual sciences .. after his wife makes three-four children :D :D she goes to work because older children can now look after small ones .. ultras dont need babysitters .. in fact the more children they have, the less they should care for them as the whole thing becomes like perpertum mobile :D :D ... the ultras dont have radios, tv's and other shit and they dont buy fancy cloths .. in fact i think they dont buy cloths at all .. you only buy cloths for your first child and then they recycle the same cloths between their children as they grow up :D :D ... but they don't seem to suffer from this way of life so much .. because they are not materialists like you and me ... the ultras also have all sorts of funds and philanthropies they are milking all the time ...

but i do agree with you that it's not good to live on the minimum wage :D :D

:D :D
 
the ultras and beduins also have a lot of black market economy ... so much of their income goes unregistered .. the beduins are also often polygamous and their second, third and fourth wives used to go as single parent families .. so they used to collect child pensions and subsidies for single mothers at the same time :D :D .. i have no idea what's going on with this now after bibi's reforms
 
but i agree that there is something in what you say .. when bibi started slashing all these social benefits he did it equally for all .. but there is a big difference between these sectors .. for the ultras or beduins to receive an equivalent of minimal wage in child pensions is more than enough .. they can live on this and not work ... and this is what they did ... but for the regular israeli urban underclass it was tough
 
You see!!! :D hehehe... finally. I knew you knew - took a long time admitting, huh Nobody ?
:D :D :D

Anyway, with this conclusion another problem has been touched. Namely that of being a democratic country to all of its citizens. (I know all about the Bedouin tactics, however you forget that even without those 'benefits' it is their tradition to have multiple wives and loads of children anyway).

Unless you dictate your mentality upon traditions (Bedouins as well as Ultra's) there is no way to make life for a 'regular urban citizen' better, social economically spoken. Because you cannot differentiate between citizens - because if you do, that's discrimination.

("you" in this context is not you, but generally spoken)
 
the arab birth rates have been plummeting ever since bibi has cut down on child pensions so there is an obvious connection between the two... it's not only their tradition and religion ...

how the ultra-Orthodox managed to withstand the reform without giving up on their demographics i dont know, but they probably have a lot of their own philanthropies that support them and procreation is one of the most important duties for them .. also the ultras dont have problems with women working .. in fact i think the worke force participation in that sector is higher among women than men !!! men have the obligation to study tora, talmud and other stuff while women have more time for themselves ... this apparently led to the bizarre situation of their women sometimes being more professional and educated in normal sense than men, as in many families it's women who are bread winners ... the arabs are at disadvantage in this sense as they often can rely only on father to feed the family...

in my view the government should not let up and continue keeping both arabs and ultra orthodox under pressure .. the arabs in particular ... under no conditions child pensions should be reestablished as it may cause a demographic surge in the arab sector once again ...

the government should simply design social policies in such a way that enables it to support urban underclass without a lion share of the funds allocated for this reaching beduin or ultra orthodox sectors ... bibi was talking about tax breaks and other measures for families in which both parents work ...such a policy would target only normal population ...

another way may be to provide kindergartens for free or at huge discount since neither beduins nor the majority of the ultras use them anyway but they are good precisely for families in which women work ... in short, it should be done with thought ... and it should be done in a way that does not destabilize the ethnic balance and endanger the jewish majority in the country .. as to the secular majority i dont care for it so much anymore ...
 
as to the secular majority i dont care for it so much anymore ...

You're on your way as well? LOL.

In any case, I think wages should just go up for EVERY sector. Maybe child kitsbaot is not such a good idea - but most certainly having a decent minimum wage and social structure for expenses - or normal government housing (which is just too crazy all those dumps only exist and no modern appartments while it is the government that owns the land here) will make it just a tiny bit better, say they should follow the Dutch social structure - which I coming from there - think is the best.
 
we cannot follow the dutch social structure because we have too many freak populations here: nomads, ultras and even regular israelis are nothing regular in the western sense of the word ... if we are not careful they can turn us into one big field of flowers of life in no time
 
Hey'ya, you're not half as tough as you pretend to be. Don't ask me how I know: I just do :D
 
;)
 
dunno if it's still of interest to you ... RK was commenting on my another post and he basically explained the mystery of the ultras and their demographics

Roman Kalik said...

Two points. One, the ultra-Orthodox are very big on mutual financial aid. There are several initiatives going, on a fund-raising basis, that help bring to large Haredi families a similar grant to the one the government used to give.

. . .

Source

 
Tsedek,
In my opinion, ideology of the state, is the source of all our problems in the middle east. The ideas of the "jewish" state of Israel and the "muslim" state of Arabia, are what makes all the trouble.
From the aparthead in Israel to the rising Saudi terrorism, and including violation of human rights in both countries.

By the way i'm Saudi. Sorry my blog is in arabic.

Cheers.
 
Well then, Nobody here you have it: they can take care 'of their own'. :D Who's hurt now most of all are the urban poor either traditional or religious or secular.

Accord, you are right of course. But start thinking about this: there is apartheid between and within continents, apartheid between countries, apartheid within countries, apartheid within cities (tribes etc. which are a strong factor in this region) - It all comes down to trying to maintain things under control. Unfortunately, this control is failing us, because we (all of us) are hurting innocents most and destroy the dreams for the future of the next generation.
 
Nobody - Ultras becoming a majority in Israel will spell destruction for Israel as well as Leftie secular loonies becoming a majority in Israel. In either direction, the extreme edge is psychotic beyond belief.

Personally, I am all for Chabad youth and kippot srugot. They're the sort of people who fight at my side.

Accord - you've got two things wrong, luv. One is complex and the other is simple.

The complex bit is that Israel is not a Jewish state in the same way that Saudi Arabia is a Muslim state, on a number of levels:

A) Israel is a democracy and Saudi Arabia is a theocracy.

B) Jewish (as in the Jewish nature of Israel) is an ethnicity, while Islam is a religion. A Jew can be ethnically Jewish and religiously anything else - I am, for instance, ethnically Jewish and religiously a Discordian.

The simple thing is that Israel is not an apartheid state. It's simply... not. In the same way Israel is not a part of a Japan. I know it's not a view that would be expressed in Saudi Arabia or in Arab/Muslim media, but it's the simple truth of it.

And the Dutch welfare system sure is doing great :)

So... how much more taxes do you suggest I pay in order to completely wreck Israel's economy and society? I'm already paying over 30%, much of which is going to hostile Arabs (in PA and Israel), ultra-orthodox Jews and just morons with more sperm than brain synapses. Should I pay 50% of my hard-earned money to people who, on average, hate me and want me dead or enslaved? 60%?

How much should be enough to put Israel on the same track as Netherlands, in which the native population is dying out while paying for the welfare of aggressive and lazy "immigrants" - a kind of invited invaders? Invaders who terrorize the locals and will finish destroying the secular and liberalist foundations of Holland within a few years?

Sounds great, anyway. Where do I sign up? And does it come with a blindfold or do I have to watch as I'm paying for the destruction of everything my ancestors dreamed and worked for?
 
the most surprising thing i read recently about them is that since the murder of that film maker the emigration rate from holland exceeds immigration and the reason is that native dutch start fleeing muslim immigration ... i don't know if it's true
 
i am not that worried by the ultras .. maybe because i got used to them in jerusalem though i agree they are a problematic population ... i am more worried that the leftists will mess the situation with them too .. they are rocking the boat too much ...

surprisingly it's the same people who dedicate their blogs to the arab israeli co-existence ... if they post anything about the secular - ultra co-existence it's only in support of holding gay parades in jerusalem !!! if the ultras' share go up as expected we may pear dearly for this shit ... we need to strike some balance with them now and hope that they stick to these understandings when they grow into something larger ..

instead this gay parades insanity .. though to be honest with you, after the story with sudanese refugees i reached the conclusion that the leftist/liberal oriented secular culture is now so imbued with some self destructive suicidal spirit that it can handle absolutely no challenge whether coming from inside or outside without getting itself into troubles ... it simply became dangerous both for itself and for everybody around
 
The poverty threshold in the Netherlands is annual income of less than $12,770 for a single adult, or $23,930 for a family with two children.

interesting .. their poverty rate seems to be close to ours .. i think here it's 2000 shekels .. more or less the same
 
i mean 2000 shekels for each member of family
 
Heh. I think I've pissed Ramzi off.

That dude is way too emotional :)
 
Well, Raccoon, that will be a surprise to many there LOL. I'm gonna put it up on a dutch forum and see what they say about that. I know people get an appartment and money to live on if they have nothing. They do complain however that everything is very much changed since they introduced the Euro - and things are more expensive. I know that everything compared to Israel used to be much cheaper in the Netherlands.

Personally, I am all for Chabad youth and kippot srugot. They're the sort of people who fight at my side.
The words 'fight' by my side - I don't know how to explain it orwhy but the word 'fight' "bothers" me....

Nobody I think we have different standpoints because we see ourselves differently. You, very very clearly, want to be foremost Jew in this country - I on the other hand, see myself as foremost as an Israeli here and only Jew when it comes to inner "philosophy" and believes.
 
in fact you are wrong .. i see myself as israeli only and dont care for anything jewish ... if i talk about jewish majority it's just because i also care for staying alive.. it's more like non arab majority ....

it's just that i have no intention to become a refugee once again ... i enjoy watching iraqi refugees in syria or jordan in the news but i dont fancy myself with having to go through the same experience myself ...
 
'enjoy watching iraqi refugees'??
 
some sort of schadenfreude ...
 
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