zondag, juni 03, 2007

 

MidEastYouth

MidEastYouth forums have a tendency of blocking out everything that's not comfortable for them to hear. You may only criticize Israel but if Israeli posters confront them with things being said in the arabic world, they are being accused of having 'superior' feeling towards arabs. EXCUSE-ME??? This con website pretending to be looking for peace doesn't know the first thing about freedom of speech if it says things not comfortable for them to hear it. Personal attacks with false accusations are being made for those having the guts to post or comment something they don't want to hear. Even if it is packed in a cottonwool resembling package so not to hurt anyone's feelings. STILL, they find it in their capacity to twist and spin and take everything out of context (like twisting the subject on which you commented around and giving it a whole new subject) -

You give examples, you say you know something about a certain subject and they jump on you wanting to deligitimize your opinion by trying to cast doubt on what your integrity. I've completely had it with them.

I also have message for them FOR ALL of them posting there:

IF (!!!!) - 'you' at mideastyouth, ever really (and I mean REALLY) want to be a peaceforum, you start by controlling your demonizing-hysteria when someone posts something you don't like to hear and refrain from killing messengers. I am quite an 'average' Israeli, wanting peace for all and wanting justice for all and wanting nobody to suffer, INCLUDING Palestinians, (duh!) - So, if (!!!) you really want to search for peace and not just pretend: you've gotta talk to 'us' (average Israeli's) in the end. Because you know what? Only 'we' can make peace. Not your shitty little forum - not all of its members in the 'outside' world playing mr. and mrs. beautiful-conscience, nobody: just 'we', the Israeli's and Palestinians. And since you've already banned a Palestinian (because he was rude or something to that extend, as you claim) and many Israeli's already just walked away from your hypocricyforum, you are having a forum build on hot air, just to make yourself feel good.

And that, Esra'a, I think is exactly why you are having this forum: to shine-up your own self-image. Because for us, you reach nothing but more desperation for our hopes in 'you people' looking at you and your hypocricy.

The Sandmonkey? "No good source" - Memri? "No good source" - Yoni - "No good source" - eventhough all of them bring you things that ARE said in the arabic world you chose to focus on the messenger to distract the attention away from the things being said there. Now, that's OK. Only you apply a whole set of different rules for whoever feels the need to demonize Israel. You FORCE people to demonize Israel, or else...... they're at least with the Mossad or something, or anything else very "devillish" like a 'zionist' (WOW!!!!! a zionist, go hide quickly - you wouldn't want to see a zionist, mrs. prejudice). I have 20.000 times more respect for unbrittled hate-declarations than this self-righteousness based on prejudice and slimey hidden emotions that seem to like only Israeli's that agree with you in demonizing Israel.

This is for you Esra'a and MEY, or wait............. he didn't say this either *_* it's memri, so when translated by them, everybody speaking hate about Israel in the Arabic world goes free and are angels, you must think you live in Paradise already!




Enjoy your egotripping, girl - you seem to need it!

Tse.

Comments:
you are wasting your time on arabs ... leave them in peace .. we have our problems to deal with , they have theirs ...
 
for reasons too complicated to explain in a short comment, the fact that the arabs are so prone to demonizing israel is their problem... it's not our problem ..
 
I don't care if they demonize Israel. But I simply HATE hypocracy. You want to demonize? Fine! Get it out and do your best. But to pretend you're a 'peacefull, balanced' person while cheating everybody is in my opinion even lower than justifying terrorism. At least those people don't lie.
 
But Tse, as NB said - hypocrisy is the problem of the hypocrite much more than it's your problem. Even - no, in fact, especially - when they can't see their own hypocrisy.

It seems a waste of time engaging people who are not worth engaging, and thereby giving them airtime ... why bother?
 
my point was more practical than moral .. in practical terms they will be the first to suffer for their lunacy ... their primary problem is a very loose touch with the reality which prevents them from acting correctly on their problems if at all ... and there is hardly anything that exacerbates and distorts their self perception and their perception of the reality more than israel ... even when they monkey after other people and claim to know that they are responsible for their miserable situation, it takes one barely two minutes of conversation with them to realize that nevertheless they still see the West/Israel as the main source of their troubles ...

Iraq is a very good example of this ... the removal of saddam has unleashed absolutely vicious sectarian wars in Iraq which reflect something very deeply rooted in their society, yet they are still concentrated exclusively on the so called american occupation though it's clear that the american forces is the only thing right now that keeps this country together .. the moment the yankees leave, iraq collapses, probably taking with itself a few more countries ...
 
Because it's very hard for me to give up on people, NC :-(
I try to find reason, a 'contact' - and hope they'll admit they're mistaken only. That it was a misunderstanding. I'm so old already and I still haven't learned that people can willingly be bad. I really believe that people can lead themselves on and get burried deeper and deeper into their own misjudgments but: that the core is good and it only needs clarifying and explaining that they're wrong with their assumptions. No matter who I 'meet' - I NEVER think something bad of someone, until it's not over and twenty times over again proven that this person IS bad, and even then.... I leave an opening that it all can be based on a misunderstanding. So, it's hard for me see how others can judge me (or Israeli's they don't even know) based on measures they are not aware of they're racist/discriminating and accuse me of something they commit themselves - but are too blind to see it.
 
I agree with above commentators....Tse,it's best to ignore MEY ............ why give any prominence or airtime to MEY? ... there are plenty of REAL and BETTER peace-loving forums to choose from where Arabs and Israelis can socialize and chat in a place without personal attacks,without moderators on ego trips
 
Well, yeah - I believe like you, NC - that Iraq isn't bad off at all with the American intervention, but the demonization of the U.S. has taken on a life of its own already in which, if you just try to be reasonable about it and balance things out, not even 'support' the U.S. but let people look beyond the demonization barriers and to themselves, you are like a devil in their eyes (one-sided tunnelvision people).

And, that's exactly what I can't stand: the personal attacks, the building your 'case' on an image that has been created and forces you to overlook everything else that is playing behind that image and could blame 'you' (it can't, because I believe in individualism and am in no way blaming anyone for anything unless that person is committing whatever it is he is going to be blamed for).

But they at MEY are so dictatorial, so hysterical when someone is out of good faith trying to be reasonable - and, if it turns out that there is something more going on (which they didn't tell about) behind the scenes are pointing their venom-gun at you and downright lie to demonize you.

All Yoni did was placing articles that are found in every newspaper everywhere and yes: they spoke about the arabs and it were usually not very good things they'd done. But hey! If you don't want that than ALSO stop placing time after time pinpointing articles accusing Israel of every detail that it assumably can be accused of.

I don't know who they're fooling at the forum, but one thing is sure: they're not fooling any 'average' Israeli, like me.

Still it's hard to understand how they can be that 'educated' and dumb at the same time.
 
You're right, a! I know, but I had to get this off my chest. "MEY this" and "MEY that" trying to look like a serious peaceblog - and cheating! I wonder how many people they're fooling.

Yes, I know, I've registered for a forum that is truly serious now, a REAL peace organization and the tone is the opposite of what is going on at MEY, so I'm even more convinced they are just playing games.
 
dont mess with arabs, tsedek ... you will save yourself a lot of disappointment .. for reasons not clear to me you are too much emotionally involved with them ... the arabs are nor our biggest problem ... and sure we are not the biggest of theirs ...
 
i would advise you to read the pdf linked by philip ... especially pay attention to egypt and syria
 
Of course you are superior to the Arabs. They are Apes.

I take that back, even Apes act better than the Arabs.

They use their own children as weapons of war, teaching them from birth that the greatest thing they can achieve in life is to blow themselves up and hopefully take a bunch of their enemy with them.

You can't even call them a member of the animal kingdom as no animal I know of treats their young in such a way.

They are really sub-human, sub-animal, I really can't think of anything that is beneath them.
 
The Bible Itself says there will never be peace in the Middle East so if you want to live in Israel you just have to live with the fact that you will be at a constant state of war.

If "peace" ever does come, you should be very worried as the Bible says that it is a trap.
 
Nobody, for me there is no lable on people. Not by ethnicity anyway. Only people who by choice 'group' themselves am I willing to accept as a group and not as individuals. I'm a believer in the very sense of the phrase 'one life = one world' - and I find myself unable to devaluate a life (person) by automatically basing my thoughts about him on a generalizing lable.

I know we talk about 'the palestinians' and 'the israeli's' and 'the arabs' and 'the muslims'' and 'the, the, the' - and I think that's political kidnapping making it easy for 'leaders' to manipulate our sympathies and thus opinions into polarized 'camps'. I know I do it myself as well, but soon as an individual talks to me, whoever that may be, I see only an individual and his opinion.

And I think (rather arrogantly I must admit) that there lies the solution. Individual interacting. I was born alone, I will die alone, no 'group' will accompany me when it's my time to go - all this automatically assuming the (bad) intentions of individuals is not my cuppa tea (and, that's exactly where MEY is making itself guilty of and therefore in no way can be called a peace-blog).

That said, there definitely is an overall 'arab mentality' - I know, because I lived in one for two years at my in-laws home. They were jews but very much arab. There was NOTHING they had in common with the ashkenazie jews here that time.

Now, with the internet individual interacting is possible and I find there are so many fakes. Pushing themselves as being 'moderates' and creating an image of selfrighteousness (like this Ray Hanania or Esra'a). That's a disappointment but that's life: you have good people and bad people. They are in my eyes IN NO WAY representing other individuals, they just created themselves a stage and misuse it.

Nobody, while still in Baghdad my brother in law was chased in the farhood down the market in order to kill him. Those were 'the' Iraqi's. However, his Iraqi neighbors also saved his life by endangering their own and offering him a hide-out in their home.
This example of contradicting the "the" - is for always burned in my heart: never generalize ;-)
 
Anoniem, I'm only not removing your comment because it's my general rule not to delete any comments and freedom of expression is my highest value. However, please know that by your generalizing and demonizing you're making yourself as individual just as disgusting as people doing the same to israeli's and/or jews.
 
Hello Tsedek =)

I'm not sure if emotions are still "hot" on both sides or not but in any case allow me please to say a few things. I'm not here to speak on behalf of Mideast Youth. I'm here only to speak for myself.

I like you Tse. I really do. I've known you for quite a long time (close to a year now) and I've never seen you this irritated before.

I haven't been following closely your discussions at MEY since I've been terribly busy these days. Hence I'm not sure if I understand what it is exactly that angers you. A few people said some offensive things to you on MEY. So what?

I am a member of MEY and as you already know I've got my own blog too. I've always kept an open mind to listen to Israelis and through the blogosphere I realized that you guys aren't the evil beasts with horns I imagined you to be since I was a little kid. Do we agree about everything? Of course not. Are we "cyber peace activists" going to bring peace to the region and change the world? Bleh. Sure, we will. Oh yeah.

We can't change the hearts and minds of millions of people. I can't and you can't. I accept that and maybe you should too. But you know what? If the blogosphere can bring about deeply profound positive changes within some individuals then to me it's worth the "headache" of dialogue.

MEY is not perfect. We're not a family exchanging hugs and kisses 24/7 but we try to make things work. I've known Esra'a for quite a long time already now too (almost a year) and I've exchanged many emails with her behind the scenes. Believe me she's not the heartless person you may imagine her to be. This is why, I'm not happy watching this whole thing unfold before me.

If it was between you and another person, or Esra'a and some other blogger, I wouldn't bother. I wasn't even planning to spend more than 30 minutes online today but I couldn't pass this by and not comment or say something.

I've watched MEY grow from the start. We have many members now and guess what? I'm not a fan of all the posts being published there. Yet we still publish posts side by side. There are members who get emotional. Sure, they're there but it doesn't bother me much because I just keep my cool. An emotional exchange can turn into an angry one easily.

Like I said, I'm not sure what has angered you to this point. Maybe you're investing too much emotions trying to bring too much/impossible change. Whatever it is, it's your right to be mad but my question is why lump all MEY members together? If you're not getting along with some people there, it's certainly your right to be frustrated, even if it's at Esra'a (I know she might be reading this now). But MEY is more than just Esra'a or Ray Hanania. It's many people with many different political leanings. There is friction amongst members there. You bet there is. Even Esra'a and I have our own heated debates sometimes. But if you're not getting along with some members there or even Esra'a herself, it isn't really a reason to bash all of MEY.

Anyways, I just thought I should drop this comment. It saddens me that you feel this way. We try to work together and do our best on the MEY site itself and the different campaigns we run there.

Again, Tsedek, I like you. I'll leave you and Esra'a to work things out, (or not, since it looks like the damage is already done). I just couldn't help it. I had to say something.


Cheers and best wishes. Sincerely,

Drima.
 
Hi Drima,
thanks for your comment. I see you care. That does me good.

this:
But if you're not getting along with some members there or even Esra'a herself, it isn't really a reason to bash all of MEY.

is because MEY is directed by Esra'a. I have nothing against the members of that forum (except for Ray Hanania) on the contrary - they all seem like very nice people and I think it's a pity they're posting on a forum led by a hypocrite - I have a major issue tho with that person because of the false pretense.

Anyone who knows me in real life can tell you that there is not one ounce of hate in me towards anybody (let alone whole 'groups' of people), however Mrs. Prejudice has made up her mind about 'israeli's' - and if their opinion is like mine, it must be hate. She can't understand that EXACTLY from 'the other side' the way she writes is understood to be hateful as well. Now, if you're leading a "peace-forum" - you don't get all hysterical and start with wild and REALLY hateful accusations. That's why it's a scam.

If those members would be posting on another forum I would be happy to join in again, but as long as a pretender is in charge there, I'm out.

sincerely,
Tse.
 
Tse,

Hate is sometimes a good thing. It can keep you warm, it can keep you alive.

Even the Bible says there is a time for hate.

We need to hate those who are dedicated to our extermination.

Here is what a great American has to say about what the Islamofascists are doing in his country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7FUQCdc9ZA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KMVMOdRyS8
 
Anoniem, hate is ALWAYS a bad thing.

It is harming the person holding it and not the person it's being held against.

Life's a mirror, Anoniem. What you do or what you feel boils down inside one's own little world (a world = a life) and thus, if surrendering to negative temptations, will only affect one's own (quality of) life.

I'm a believer (as I stated many times) and I solemnly believe that I will be called to pay responsibility upon (only and alone) my OWN actions/feelings and be judged on them, and not on those of what others do/feel. When the Day comes....
 
The Bible says that hate is sometimes appropriate.


http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/3-3.htm

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

---

Our fear of hate, our unwillingness to hate is making us weak. We must understand that to everything there is a season and that sometimes hate is a good and necessary thing to have.

We all have a dark side that we must control but we must also respect it and understand there is a reason for it and an appropriate time to embrace it.
 
Hate is part of the human condition. It is part of what makes us human. If we don't learn how to embrace our dark side we become incomplete.

It is unhealthy to let your dark side take control over your life but it is equally unhealthy for you to always keep your dark side restrained. There are times when you need to let your dark side out.

Survival depends on an appropriate amount of hate. Hate isn't always to be feared. Sometimes it needs to be embraced.
 
Nobody, while still in Baghdad my brother in law was chased in the farhood down the market in order to kill him. Those were 'the' Iraqi's. However, his Iraqi neighbors also saved his life by endangering their own and offering him a hide-out in their home.
This example of contradicting the "the" - is for always burned in my heart: never generalize ;-)


your problem is that you are trying to generalize the rules for all situations... always ... never ... every situation has its approach ... when you meet an individual you should not generalize ... when you are talking about politics or analyzing prospects of peace or war you should generalize all the time because otherwise there is nothing to talk about ...

these forums are a reflection of the general situation in the arab society ... at least a certain part of it ... and so if you go to these forums, by the simple rule of statistics you are going to be exposed to this shit in the same proportion it exists in that section of population ... the people posting in english from the other side are ways more educated and advanced than the uneducated ones ... make your conclusions about the rest
 
Our fear of hate, our unwillingness to hate is making us weak.

Wrong. Hate is tempting as a vamp to a sailor seeing a port after a year long journey... but it is making the person that hates weak because of the negative focus. hate takes energy and it's taking it away from the positive energy. and that's weakening.

It is unhealthy to let your dark side take control over your life but it is equally unhealthy for you to always keep your dark side restrained. There are times when you need to let your dark side out.
That's why people in this earthy life didn't only get a heart and emotions but also brains. First you let your emotions out and find that they are weakening you and draw you deeper and deeper, that's when you brains come into action : to prevent this weakening process and protect you from it. People who hate are poor because not willing to learn, I'm sorry, I can't see it any other way.

when you are talking about politics or analyzing prospects of peace or war you should generalize all the time because otherwise there is nothing to talk about
oh yes there is :D
individuality and each and everyone's opinion is a very rich tool to keep on talking. generalizing has the opposite effect: there are 'camps' and you'll be stuck in your camp without having anything to talk about with people of the other 'camp' only to say 'yes' and 'amen' to your campmembers. That's not much of a conversation.. at least, not for me. I find it totally uninteresting.
 
Sorry about what happened on the MEY forum. I haven't posted there, mostly because I read Esra'a, and knew there was no way I would enjoy that forum.

I have nothing against Palestinians as individual people (even as I dispute the existence of the "Palestinian" ethnicity as a modern invention), BUT, I do have a problem with the 'Palestinian' culture as a whole. That said, individual people are distinct from the broader culture.

When 2/3 of 'Palestinians' polled said they are against ANY state of Israel EVER being in existence...yes, I have a problem with 'Palestinian' culture. (source)

It is not just a couple of random extremists. There is a real culture of Shahid.

Now that said, people like Nizo are some of the best around. 'Palestinians' are people, just like anyone else, and are tabula rasas at birth. The goal should be to fill the minds of children with a love of life, learning, and excitment for the world, and not a love of death.
 
individuality and each and everyone's opinion is a very rich tool to keep on talking. generalizing has the opposite effect: there are 'camps' and you'll be stuck in your camp without having anything to talk about with people of the other 'camp' only to say 'yes' and 'amen' to your campmembers. That's not much of a conversation.. at least, not for me. I find it totally uninteresting.

actually it works just the other way around ... and the conversations between well intentioned individuals from different camps who are trying to reduce everything to the individual level is one of the most stale and boring conversations one can find on the internet ...

they usually revolve around the most banal and boring generalizations that no normal person, except for the idealists himself, can hear any longer ... like this :

mr. A: we are all just simple human beings..

mr. B: you are right ... absolutely simple human beings

mr .A: it's a simple truth, isn't it?

mr. B: yeah .. you are right .. we are just simple human beings ... it's as simple as that ...

mr. A: and we love our children, want peace and prosperity ...

mr. B: yeah .. let it be peace everywhere

mr. A: so why we cannot just live peacefully together ???

mr. B: ... good question ... why we cannot peacefully co-exist with each other ??

mr. A: it should be our politicians ... it's all their fault

mr. B: you are right ... it's all their fault ..

mr. A: so down with the politicians .. let it be peace

mr. B: damn the motherfuckers .. let it be peace everywhere ...

mr A: need to move, mr. B ... really nice to meet you ... you are a wonderful simple human being

mr B: you too ... hope to see you soon ... bye, mr A
 
Red tulips. Looking in from the outside is SO confusing. i have polls indicating that 72% of the palestinians are actually accepting there exists a jewish state called israel.
What to believe?
You know?

As a human being I am reluctant and refuse to believe that some kind of indoctrination exists with mothers, like me, but from a different 'culture' - that actually want bad for their children.

Nizo is a sweetheart. I wish he would voice his opinion about all this. But, I know I can only wish ;)
 
As a human being I am reluctant and refuse to believe that some kind of indoctrination exists with mothers, like me, but from a different 'culture' - that actually want bad for their children.

memri site has good clips that will cure you from this delusion in no time
 
Nobody:

at least your mr. A & B are not from the same 'camp'

meaning that inter-human connections trespassing the conventional (but in truth indoctrinated) 'borders' are moving forwards by'finding each other'- outside of their 'camp'

comes to mind your definition of 'your own people'

(remember?)

"your own people" can be many things. doesn't exclusively have to be jews, or muslims, or christians, or atheists.. there are many, many factors interconnecting outside of the conventionally pushed down our throats 'definitions',

And, that's where 'individuality' comes to the surface again. individually many people can connect with people outside their own camp, while there are also many people who cannot connect with people inside their own camp (hilltop settler vs. seculars in isael)

so? We keep on fighting wars for those extemists in our midst we don't feel any connection with, or do we connect to people outside our 'camp' who feel the same as "us"?
 
Nobody:

memri site has good clips that will cure you from this delusion in no time

sure. they're there and out to 'get us' however:

do they represent the majority of people? and, if not so, can the majority of people not agreeing with this do something to change the 'image'?
 
sure. they're there and out to 'get us' however:

this is called demagoguery tsedek ... you said:

As a human being I am reluctant and refuse to believe that some kind of indoctrination exists with mothers, like me, but from a different 'culture' - that actually want bad for their children.

so i told you go to memri site and see such mothers and actually whole families for yourself ... now what is this mocking of memri supposed to mean??? the clips are fake ??? the memri misleads people on purpose by fabricating them ??
 
never mind that what you claim is the father and mother of all generalizations
 
I am of the firm belief that the majority culture will never accept Israel, but it is getting worse and not better. When you see crap such as Hamas Mickey Mouse, you know the problem is very deep indeed.

And no, the problem is not isolated. How do I know this? because I see Palestinian Media Watch, and see the children's text books, children's programming, and know the high level of support the mother of multiple suicide bombers had when she ran for elections.

The problem is widespread and not isolated.

Palestinians come in all colors of the rainbow, so some are great people, such as Nizo, and some are evil monsters, such as Arafat. But are people like Nizo in control? No. Do people like Nizo constitute the majority? I will also add another sad "no" to that.

Maybe in time they will. I have to remain optimistic. If people like Nizo were in control, I would say it would be fair and just for the Palestinians to have their own state. I will go a step further. If people like Nizo were in control, then I wouldn't even mind if they were Israeli citizens.

But we have to deal with reality and not fantasy. Until the fantasy becomes reality, all we can do is support people like Nizo when we can.
 
Nobody
so i told you go to memri site and see such mothers and actually whole families for yourself

fine. I know. I've seen and believed that this is the face of 'the' palestinians as well. however, I also KNOW Palestinians. They are NOT like that. FAR from it. I simply REFUSE to accept to turn them into a package deal. Why? Why should evil win? No, I refuse, Nobody. There are most probably loads and loads and loads of decent people under the Palestinians like there are under the jewish people. I will NOT give in to propaganda sites EVEN if they tell the truth about part of the Palestinians population. Sorry. No.

People are people are people....

I'm gonna put up a new post, show you what people exist and how they work together with Israeli's = albeit also using terms I don't stand behind, but still - there is no-one of the 'hate-club' (Israeli or Palestinian) that will convince me that looking at the evil ones of the 'opposite side' is the only solution to survive. No way. I look at the good people. PEOPLE: like in without lables.

Sorry, that's me.
 
RedTulipsI am of the firm belief that the majority culture will never accept Israel, but it is getting worse and not better.

but their position and everyday life isn't getting any better either, is it? As a matter of fact, not even looking to who's at fault, their lives haved turned into a living hell. HOW, RedTulips, can one expect to accept a principle that have been taught and experienced for so many years as being the caus of your distress and hardship to 'ACCEPT' 'us'? How? Humanely speaking it needs not only super-human powers to be able to do so, it needs hope. And, RedTulips, I think they don't have that much hope anymore after all this time....

And no, the problem is not isolated. How do I know this? because I see Palestinian Media Watch

Which follows? State organized propaganda....
I know for sure this is true and this happens on PTV (Palestinian TV) - and in schools and in 'summer-camps' - I know, but.....

I also know of parents who themselves don't know anymore what to feel, how to feel, who to believe... and keep their feelings being hurt over and over again bu either the provocation of their 'leaders' or the reaction of 'our leaders'.

Nope. It takes so much more to understand the thoughts and feelings and reactions of the "average" Palestinian, way more than selected clips of the most extreme portion in their society.
 
RedTulipsPalestinians come in all colors of the rainbow, so some are great people, such as Nizo, and some are evil monsters, such as Arafat.

And there are loads of shades and nuances in between those two. Not everybody has to perfectly match what
'we' demand. Others have demands as well. As long as there's a 'connection' a Palestinian doesn't have to be 'great' like Nizo, or 'evil' like arafat. Just let them be people.....
 
The Bible says that there is an appropriate time to hate.

And I say the Palestinians are the appropriate people to hate.
 
THIS is a (despisable) act of pure HATRED. You tell me, Anoniem - this is a feeling the Torah condones?

If anything, I would feel hatred to the ones perpetrating such despisable acts - however: even there hatred won't solve anything. People like that, that hate, are their own punishment.
 
I am not going to say whether that action was right or wrong but the Torah does teach that there are appropriate times to hate.

Here is a good article on hate

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/society/A_Time_to_Hate.asp

Here is another good article on hate.

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=249&o=332&dns=1

Don't fear hate. It is part of what makes us up as people and it does have its purposes. I am not saying it doesn't need to be controlled. Of course it does. But it also needs to be let out sometimes as well.

. If you absolutely cannot hate, then you absolutely cannot love, either.
 
Sorry, the page you requested is not on our website.

Visit our homepage: www.aish.com

is what I get when I try to enter your first link...

From your second article:
On the other hand, if Joe Citizen is so inflamed with extreme indignation and disgust toward that mugger in action that he commences physical hostilities, is it so bad?
It has nothing to do with hate, that one. Only applying the law of self-defense. I would shoot someone (in the knee if I could, but anywhere else if that's impossible) if they'd tried to enter my home at night just out of fright. No hate existing there....


and this:
The concept of Amalek
Read this please....

"Thankfully since today we cannot conclusively identify any single nation as being Amalek the rabbis freed us from this unsavory obligation."

You might also read in it that hate has no place in the whole thing. Following God's commandments one can do with a heavy heart as well (remember Abraham and God's request of sacrifice).

You are, therefore, wrong and so are the people writing these interpretations. Hate is a downward spiral that leads to nowhere else but self-destruction. Always.....
 
Here is the first link

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/society/A_Time_to_Hate.asp

http://www.aish.com/

societyWork/society/
A_Time_to_Hate.asp
 
When you shoot, you should always SHOOT TO KILL.

Shooting someone in the knees, that's just for the movies.

Every expert on self-defense I have ever heard has always said that when you pull a gun you better be prepared to shoot to kill.
 
As to the article you posted it isn't that I am trying to ignore it. It is that it asks some questions I don't even know are appropriate to ask.

See one of my believe is that Life is not Objective. You were placed on this earth at a certain place, a certain time, in a certain situation and that is how you should see things. Sure as an academic exercise you can for a moment "see it from the other side" but you shouldn't really engage in any such public discussion unless, and only up to the point that such thinking is used to in order to anticipate the actions of your opponent.

I leave "seeing things from a objective point of view" to the historians. And then even they have a difficulty doing that as they all too often put their contemporary values, hindsight, contemporary political agendas, etc. into the analysis.

And as for history you have recent history, which may have not happened when you were alive but there are those around you who were alive and were effected by it. I can't totally be objective there either. I wouldn't think it is right.

That is why I find it very hard to have a discussion with a Jew about if one looked at Hitler objectively, and if one did for a moment just only for the sake of argument say that the benefit of a Third Reich would ultimately be a tremendously good thing for the Germans would the ends they took be justified? I just can't separate myself from my hatred of the Nazis and their ideology which would be necessary to do that. I just can't be objective about that as I could about say the rule or Caesar or something like that.

And if I did, neither you or I might like the answer to that philosophical question. To you it might be unnecessarily hurtful.

Sorry, there are just some questions you shouldn't ask when you are living it. Leave them to the academics in the universities 100 years from now.
 
I am totally against being "objective" regarding current events and also with events that have had an effect on individuals that are still living or people who are still living who personally knew them.

Sir Isaiah Berlin (1909-1997) - one of the leading philosophers of our age - in an essay entitled "The Pursuit of the Ideal" asked the following question: If one really believed that Hitler's "final solution" would make mankind righteous, happy, creative and harmonious for ever, would any cost be too high to pay to achieve this?

Sorry, this happened too close to the time that you and I are living for me to even engage in a discussion of this. I would feel it would be wrong to engage this topic in an objective academic manner. That in itself would be wrong and it was wrong for Sir Isaiah Berlin to even bring up such a topic for discussion.

I can't just be that objective. I live my life in subjective terms. I know who I am, I know the time I belong to, I know the situation in that G-d or chance or whatever have brought me into. And to me my children's lives are more important than your children's lives and I am sure its the same for your.

But the truth is that you don't threaten my children's lives and I don't threaten yours. But the Palestinians threaten the children of both of us.

While for historians who lives and who dies are just objective matters of academic interests, for me, YEAH it matters!
 
You want me to be objective?

You want the truth?

The truth is that if I was a Palestinian I would want to see you dead too. You, your children, your parents, your friends, all you Jews. I would want to drive you all into the sea!

But I am not, so I don't. I see the Jewish as a group of people who have and who had contributed much to society, whereas the Palestinians seem incapable of making any positive contribution to this world. All and all if I had to choose I believe that the world would be better off without the Palestinians than with you.

And, it wasn't you who were cheering and passing out candy on 9-11.

So, I know who I am and on whose side I need to be on. Let historians "objectively" debate about the rest.
 
All and all if I had to choose I believe that the world would be better off without the Palestinians than without you.

What do you think?

Because when it comes right down to it that is what it's all about.

It's either you or them. Or put it in clearer terms than that, it's either your children or their children.
 
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=249&o=332&dns=1

Hate is a normal human emotion, like love. As a matter of fact, they are opposites. Hate rejects, love accepts. Hate attacks, love defends. Hate is separation, love is connection. It's just a question of what you do with them: hate can make you a hero (Batman hates muggers), love can get you locked up (stalking pretty girls). So is hate bad? Is love good? No, no: it depends on whom you're hating or loving. If you absolutely cannot hate, then you absolutely cannot love, either.
 
http://www.rense.com/general14/rabbi.htm

A Time To Hate - A
Rabbi Speaks Out
By Rabbi Shmuel Boteach
formerly the Chabad Rabbi at Oxford University


Here are some key sentences.

One of the most frequent themes of my writings is how we - a generation with a fifty percent divorce rate and a professional singles scene - have forgotten how to love. Today I will surprise you by complaining about how we have forgotten how to hate.


Indeed, exhortations to hate all manner of evil abound in the Bible and God Himself hates every form of immorality because of its harm to mankind. Thus the book of Proverbs declares, "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil." Likewise, King David declares regarding the cruel: "I have hated them with a deep loathing. They are as enemies to me." Hatred is a valid emotion - an appropriate response - when directed at the truly evil: those who have gone beyond the pale of human decency by committing acts which unweave the basic fabric of civilized living. Contrary to Christianity, which advocates turning the other cheek to belligerence and loving the wicked, Judaism obligates us to despise and resist the wicked at all costs.

(I would say that "turn the other cheek" is an often misunderstood concept. Especially since what the passage really says is to turn the left cheek to a belligerent and why it is important that it was the left cheek that was being discussed. But that is for another discussion and really doesn't relate to those of the Jewish, instead of the Christian tradition.)

Point is Hate is an essential emotion. Like the Rabbi I fear that forgetting to hate could lead to Israel's (and America's) Downfall.
 
Here's another good website to go to.

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=425

The Virtue of Hate

by Meir Y. Soloveichik

The Talmud offers an instructive solution: after Saul had killed every Amalekite, he experienced a moment of mercy, and wrongly refrained from killing King Agag. This allowed Agag a window of opportunity; he had several minutes before he was killed by the angry Samuel. In those precious moments, Agag engaged in relations with a random woman, and his progeny lived on to threaten the Jews in the future. The message is that hate allows us to keep our guard up, to protect us. When we are facing those who seek nothing but our destruction, our hate reminds us who we are dealing with. When hate is appropriate, then it is not only virtuous, but essential for Jewish well-being.
 
Here's another one.

When hatred is necessary
 
Jesus wasn't the peacenik that some have tried to make him out as being.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 10-34


When He chased out those money changers from the Temple it was with Whip in Hand!

And from all accounts HE was PISSED!
 
This article asks the question, should we hate them.

That would be, Yes.

"Hate is a very strong word, and there are those who maintain that eliminating hate will make the world a much better place. This could not be further from the truth. Any human attribute can be either good and bad. Indeed, inappropriate love is a destructive force: think of the woman who remains loyal to a child abuser and does not report him because she loves him. Yet when love is directed in the right direction it is one of the most powerfully positive and constructive forces known to humankind.

The same is true with hate. "
 
Why Does Esau Hate Jacob?

Or to put in more modern terms Why does the Palestinians hate the Jews?

If Jacob (Israel) appeases him (the Palestinians), gives him gifts, acts towards him like the brother he is, Esau hates him even more.
 
http://www.israelbooks.com/bookDetails.asp?book=473
 
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41601

Moral people must learn how to hate

Hatred is not necessarily of the devil. Like any emotion, it is neutral, its morality determined solely by the object to which it is directed. A man's desire to fleetingly conquer a woman is immoral, but the ambition to conquer disease is Godly. The same is true of hatred. It is demonic only when directed at innocent people who happen to have darker skin than you, but truly appropriate when directed at someone whose murderous actions have made the world a darker place.
 
If you have forgotten, here are the Palestinians

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_MickeyMouseClone.asx

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.htm

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

What's the difference between that?

And this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkWgL-Smmrc

At least the Nazis waited until their children grew up to use them as instruments of war (until the end of the war where they did start using young boys and old men in their defense of Berlin).
 
The Arabs have been Nazis for a quite a long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OcFj5Z0jCQ
 
Here is the enemy for you
 
Anoniem said...

Why Does Esau Hate Jacob?

Or to put in more modern terms Why does the Palestinians hate the Jews?

If Jacob (Israel) appeases him (the Palestinians), gives him gifts, acts towards him like the brother he is, Esau hates him even more.


Anoniem, read parashat ve-yishlach

there has been a wrong. there needs to be reconcilliation. it doesn't come from hating back. it will come from repentance. when looking inward oneself and admitting the wrongs done, it will create a positive action in return. when repaying hate with hate, there is NO end and the devil has won. since I believe in God and justice and good I don't want to let the devil win.

;-)
 
Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.

----

That is how goodness is repaid. You give them a gift and they destroy it.

It is what I mean about how Palestinians have never contributed anything good to the world. You made the desert bloom, but when the Palestinians came, they destroyed all of that.

There is no reconciling with such people. They are less than human. Not because I say they are less than human, but because of their own behavior makes them so.

---

Regardless of what wrong you may or may not have committed against the Palestinians, in the end you have to think of your own survival. And I have to look at whether regardless of the wrong you may or may not have committed against them, still deep down does the Palestinians represent evil. And deep down, they they do
 
it will come from repentance. when looking inward oneself and admitting the wrongs done, it will create a positive action in return.

And that is the fatal flaw in your thinking. They aren't like us. They really aren't.

What you suggest will not create a positive action in return. It will be seen as a sign of weakness, a sign that their violence is indeed working, and will actually invite more attack.

And remember this. Good has never defeated evil. Now good people have, but to do so they had to resort to actions which in other contexts would be considered evil. They had to fight fire with fire.
 
No, Anoniem.
You're wrong.
There are evil people amongst them. Like there are evil people among every nation. The problem with the Palestinians is that those evil people are holding the strings. In other, more in charge countries, people like that are put behind bars. I mean... who goes and kills off rival political supporters just like that in the streets? Can you imagine this happening in the US (or wherever you are from)? Underneath that layer of pure criminal groups lies a population that suffers not only from Israel (from her defense measures) but from their own people's greed and cruelness as well. C'mon you! Doesn't it do anything to you seeing them hurt? You say they are no people, but I don't see robots, I see flesh and blood people, I see warm tears falling over cheeks, I hear screams of pain that go right through my heart. THEY ARE PEOPLE, Anoniem - whether you like it or not: they're God's creation and nothing more or less.

Of course Israel has to defend the lives of its own people first and foremost, but that does NOT mean that at the same time it has to ruin that of others. No way.

In conclusion: I find people that hate poor, I don't look down on them, but I feel pity for them. I can't help it, I feel they are 'losers' - and that goes for everyone that has hate in him, because such a person has not yet or is not willing to rise above this self-destructing, eat-from-the-inside temptation of the devil.
 
Doesn't it do anything to you seeing them hurt?

Well it doesn't make me want to make me pass out candy in celebration of their pain.

Of course Israel has to defend the lives of its own people first and foremost, but that does NOT mean that at the same time it has to ruin that of others. No way.

Who are you to say what it does and does not take to defend the lives of Israelis. Are you some kind of expert on that?

THEY ARE PEOPLE, Anoniem - whether you like it or not: they're God's creation and nothing more or less.

They through their own behavior have turned themselves into something less. It is they who are responsible for profaning G-d's creation.
 
Hi,

what a coincidence!
Just accidentally find your blog on the net also I am new to MYE.

I have no clue what did they say or ... but what I read from your comments I find it very reasonable and full of love. Also I find it you don't like hate and hypocrisy! me too.
Also i like what you said "when repaying hate with hate, there is NO end" I like this wisdom and knowledge so let's do something to end to this conflict? is there any solution? Please just let me know
 
Ay pity, Fariborz Shamshiri, I suppose you won't read this anymore, but I just saw your comment now (11/8/2007) - and want to say I'm sorry I didn't see it before :(
 
" there are plenty of REAL and BETTER peace-loving forums to choose from where Arabs and Israelis can socialize and chat in a place without personal attacks,without moderators on ego trips "

such as ShaSa ?
such a hypocrite are you tsedek
such full of hate are you
btw you are not jewish you are a convert and you are not Mizrahi so why such hatred against all Ashkenazi ?
 
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