vrijdag, maart 23, 2007

 

Speaking as a mum......

When I speak as a mum, I'm not speaking as a Palestinian....


Article in Hebrew of interview with the family who's three young children were purposely murdered in front of their eyes while 276 bullets were fired on them.... :-(

There's also the videoclip to watch.

What makes me really sick to my stomach are the comments underneath that article. GRRRRRRR. People have become monsters :-(

Tse.

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/560/447.html

Comments:
I agree with the man's last words that if the new Pal govt. doesn't ensure security, we're heading towards a situation similar to that in Iraq.
 
People haven't become monsters.

They have always been monsters. You should know that as much as anyone.

So, what do you do to defeat a monster? BECOME A BIGGER MONSTER.

Speaking as a mum wouldn't you rather have it be their children this happens to than yours.

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/TheForgottenRachels.html
 
Anonymous, that's a painful link. It hurts (besides reading the propaganda = whatever that means) It is known that the most hurtful things in one's live are stolen for propaganda purposes. Therefore, I must reply to your question:

Speaking as a mum wouldn't you rather have it be their children this happens to than yours.

it don't want it happen to ANYBODY's children. Obviously I would be devastated if it would happen to mine, that -exactly that- makes me to feel for someone else's children as mine: only on the basis of equality (equivalation of feelings instead going after the things that caused it, because while understanding and feeling for your fellow-human beings is recognized I strongly believe the 'causes' that brought about this hurt can be defeated) can 'we' = human beings strive to ensure our own children's safety. To place your hurt above or under someone else's hurt will only give excuses for the hurt to continue.
 
Palestinians have bred their children from birth to be monsters.

After reading about all the "forgotten Rachels I agree with anony here.

Whatever violence the Palestinians might experience they have brought upon themselves. When I see a picture of a dead Palestinian kid I say GREAT! One less of them to around to be killing us.

Here is a video from America that sums up my thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9oX5Q2ftmA
 
The point I believe that Anonymous was making was that it either could be their children or your children.

Given that choice I want to be part of making sure that its THEIR CHILDREN!
 
Check this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttLgzrT8k0

Monsters don't even com close to describing what these people are. They are so evil that we really don't have words for them.

The only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian, and that goes for their children as well.
 
Here's another link to that video.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_mamareem2007.asx

We must understand that the Palestinians don't have children. At least not in the way we think of children.

Palestinians are Natural Born Killers from Birth.

I would have no problem with looking a Palestinian child in his or her face and put a bullet in their head.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_mamareem2007.asx
 
Oh, looking the Palies can make a video.

Well so can we!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI

http://www.stuckmojomedia.com/audio/Stuck_Mojo_For_The_Cause_Of_Allah.mp3

I speak peace when peace is spoken, But I speak war when your hate is provoking, The season is open 24-7-365, Man up yo time to ride, No need to hide behind slogans of deceit, Claiming that you're a religion of peace, We just don't believe you, We can clearly see through, The madness that you're feeding your people, Jihad the cry of your unholy war, Using the willing, the weak and poor, From birth drowning in propaganda, rhetoric and slander, All we can say is damn ya

My forefathers fought and died for this here
I'm stronger than your war of fear
Are we clear?
If you step in my hood
It's understood
It's open season

I don't need a faith that's blind, Where death and hate bring me peace of mind, With views that are stuck deep in the seventh century, So much sand in your eyes to blind to see, The venom that you leaders preach, Is the path to your own destruction, Your own demise, You might say that I don't understand but your disgust for me is what I realize, Surprise!
Your homicidal ways has got the whole world watching, Whole world scoping, So if you bring it to my home base, Best believe it, The season's open

I see you, Hell yeah I see you, Motherfucker naw, I don't wanna be you, If you come to my place, I'll drop more than just some bass, Yo you'll get a taste of a, Sick motherfucker from the Dirty, I ain't worrying not a fucking bit, I'm telescoping like Hubble, Yo you in trouble, Yo on the double, I'm wild with mine, Bring that style with mine, Fuck with my family I'll end your life, Just the way it is, Just the way it be, Do you understand? No matter if you're woman or man, or child, My profile is crazy, That shit you do doesn't amaze me, I'm ready to blaze thee

I don't give a damn what god you claim, I've seen the innocent that you've slain, On my streets you're just fair game, Like a pig walk to your slaughter, The heat here is so much hotter, And my views won't teeter totter or fluctuate, Step to me you just met your fate, And I'll annihilate, With the skill of a Shogun assassin, Slicing and dicing precise with a passion, In any shape form or fashion, Bring it to my home, Welcome to the danger zone, Cause your attitude's the reason, The triggers keep squeezing, The hunt is on and it's open season

It's Open Season

--

No matter if you're woman or man, or child, My profile is crazy, That shit you do doesn't amaze me, I'm ready to blaze thee...
 
Fuck with my family I'll end your life, Just the way it is, Just the way it be, Do you understand? No matter if you're woman or man, or child, My profile is crazy, That shit you do doesn't amaze me, I'm ready to blaze thee...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI

The only Good Palie is a dead one. Call it racism if you like. I call it protecting me and mine!
 
'we' = human beings strive to ensure our own children's safety.

The only way WE can do that is to kill as many of their children as possible!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI
 
The only way WE can do that is to kill as many of their children as possible!

You are a bloodthirsty, simplistic monster who sees things in black and white. There is no colour in your world.

I'm Palestinian and I do not harbour a single bad intention towards your people. I was also a Palestinian child at some point, would you have killed me?
 
where did these 'anonymous' people here come from? :(
 
Nizo, have you seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqHUdwePfbM
 
Nizo,

If I was in a situation where it was your life or mine or even worse your life or my child, Yeah I would have killed you even when you were a child.

You Palies aren't going to be able use children as terrorists thinking that we are going to be surprised or will hesitate due to the attackers young age. I don't mind putting a bullet between some four year old terrorist's eyes. I won't even give it a second thought.
 
After seeing what the Palestinians have turned their kids to I agree. No more self hating Jew for me.

I would treat this kids like I would treat Dogs who have been trained to attack.

Kill THEM before they KILL US.

How quickly we have all forgotten those very important words "NEVER AGAIN"!
 
Joe:

The Torah forbids taking any kind of revenge, active or passive. It is forbidden to retaliate even verbally. If someone who has offended you asks for a favor, it is not permissible to say, "All right, I will do it for you even though you don't deserve it." Rather, you must do the favor and remain silent (Leviticus 19:18, Rashi).

A person may say, "I can restrain myself from taking revenge, and I can even restrain myself from telling someone he does not deserve it. But how do you expect me to not feel resentment? My feelings are not under my voluntary control."

If it would not be possible to overcome resentments, the Torah would not ask it of us. The Torah does not demand of us to do the impossible.

Inasmuch as any expression of a grudge is forbidden, there is simply no purpose in holding onto it. The only one who is harmed by a grudge is the one who holds it, not the one against whom it is held. Carrying a grudge may result in a variety of serious psychosomatic conditions, such as migraine headaches, high blood pressure and digestive disorders. It is certainly most foolish, as King Solomon said, to do harm to yourself because of another person's behavior.


Only forgiveness can bring 'victory' (over who-ever wish harm) and spare lives. It are ONLY good, resentless thoughts (no matter what someone else think or do) that will undermine each and every step of the devil that is sawing hatred between people. Here again:

...The great merit of forgiving is also demonstrated by an incident related by Rabbi Chaim Shmulevitz. "During the Six Day War, we were assembled in a shelter, and we could hear the shells exploding around us. People were saying Tehillim (Psalms) fervently.

"Then I heard an exclamation from a woman whose husband had abused her, and who had abandoned her for ten years, with no support for the children... The woman said, 'Master of the universe! I forgive my husband for all the pain and agony he has caused me. Just as I have forgiven him, I plead with You to forgive the sins of all who are gathered here.'"

Rabbi Shmulevitz said, "That our lives were spared was in the merit of this woman, who overcame the resentments she harbored against her husband who had so grieved her."


An interesting site, I recommend everybody with devastating, destructive thoughts of agressiveness to visit - there are loads of wisdoms from the Torah and stories:

http://www.innernet.org.il/article.php?aid=25
 
Tsedek said...

where did these 'anonymous' people here come from? :(


LOL

i bet its from nizo's blog ..

its this guy .. israel-defender or how he called himself ?

:D
 
Well, the moonbat season is officially open now.
 
Killing a Palestinian child isn't revenge.

It's prevention.

They are no better than junk yard dogs. They are trained from birth to kill.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqHUdwePfbM
 
we were unfair to aA.G ... i am plainly starting missing the guy .. lets call him to come back to take over the thread ... with all his deficiencies he at least tried to play an intellectual

;)
 
that's why you had to try to hurt him on personal level instead of go against his opinion?
 
no tsedek

but i am bored with this A.G ... the worst thing that could have happened to him, have eventually happened ... he lost the shine of being a representative of a militant fundamentalist movement that was fascinating so many people at the beginning .. he has simply become boring ...

who can listen for hours for this 'we are opressed ..they dont like us ...they are racists' ???

also i have a different moral concept than you .. mine is based on responsibility ... A.G is a deeply irresponsible person .. as most of them ... they got loads of problems .. they may be leading their shia community in lebanon for one of the worst shia disasters in modern history .. and he is plainly more interested in israel and this anti west thing ... his good intentions and idealism dont count for me..

in the same way if anything happens to this country because of some delusional idealistic thinking of your style, i will hold you and other people like you directly responsible ... i dont excuse wishful thinking any more than a vicious thinking ...i grew up in a country that was wrecked by the idealists whose style of thinking and a way of expressing themselves is startlingly similar to that of A.G and other fundamentalist idealists ...

for me good intentions are no excuse if they cause people to ignore the obvious and endanger people around and their families for the sake of some utopia ... and for me being irresponsible in this sense equals being immoral ...
 
few things:

1. i don't like discussing someone on a blog. it's not about personal posters. so i hate this trying to undermine one's opinion by sinking so low as to devaluate him as a human being by projecting his claims on personality. Everybody is a person, and everybody in involved: the ones you agree with and the ones you don't. Not to accept that by making them 'less' important is a fat-big no-go in my eyes.

2. who can listen for hours this conflict, unlike any other conflict in the whole world has been going on now for 60 years. LISTENING (you don't have to agree) for hours seems like a nice refreshment compared to the pushing one's own opinion down the throat of one-another like has been tried (from both sides) in these past 60 years.

3. as you probably meant me with your 'immoral' statement, I'm holding you responsible for escalation. I fail to comprehend your short-term victory thinking. Do you really think that a few million people just 'fade-away' if not a just solution is found by not listening to them and calling their claims 'boring'? "Immoral" I call the ones who make me have to chose between one side of the spectrum committing their atrocities OR the other and calling me 'immoral' because I refuse to that.

So, get this straight:

I will hold YOU responsible if anything will happen to this country. "A Light Among Nations" has a MORAL obligation, and you are not aware of that.
 
Tsedek:

Israel has a special duty to uphold high moral standards for its own citizens. But I do not see why the world should hold Israel out to any higher standards than anyone else.

Why are you saying that Israel should be treated differently than any nation in the world? (assuming that is what you are saying)

If that is indeed what you are saying, I find that wrong and offensive, especially coming from an Israeli.

On to the other comments...As far as the killing a Palestinian child, I do not see it ever justified if it could be avoided. It's wrong to celebrate a death or wish for the death of civilians, but ultimately, and this is where perhaps we differ...the option of no death is simply not an option.

Tsedek, what you are espousing is idealistic and nice, but ultimately not reality. The fact of the matter remains that the Middle East is a violent place, and there are millions of jihadists and would be jihadists in the Middle East. This is simply a fact. And a death of an Israeli child is wholly different from the death of a Palestinian child. Israeli children are targets of Palestinian suicide bombers. Palestinian children are killed either accidentally, or because they were aiming to shoot and kill Israelis. This is reality.

There is no equivalency. A death is always sad, always the loss of a human life. But it does not mean there is ever an equivalency of moral culpability. There is none.

I just hope that you realize that, as an Israeli.
 
What 'the world' says is unimportant, Red Tulips. The 'high morality' standard we owe to 'ourselves' -

by accepting the conditions of God which say that we jews have to adhere to sixhundred and something mitzvot while 'the world' can get to heaven by adhering just to 7, we placed ourselves in that position when we accepted the Torah.

I find that wrong and offensive, especially coming from an Israeli.

Why? As many people I see it also as a miracle Israel has come to being while an all-out hostile world was all around her. When we accept miracles (for me: God's help) without question, we must also take the obligation that miracle has put upon us. Which is: carrying the word of justice and foregiveness and by showing a high moral ground give example for the nations of the world

All Israel has accomplished till now is being the most dangerous country, in every poll you'll find, for the world.

Something must be wrong.

I believe with whole my heart that by being a morally high developed nation it can only collect others to do the same thing.

Till now, as you can see from the comments, 'we' are dragged behind those that give the worst 'example':

read this:

http://www-english.tamu.edu/pers/fac/myers/vayishlah.html



Tsedek, what you are espousing is idealistic and nice, but ultimately not reality.

weapons help? till when? it is human kindness that will gain the hearts of people and make them feel guilty for wanting to destroy us. weapons are a short-term solution, provoking the use of weapons against us. I'm in now way against defending our right to exist, and will be the first to actually go to the front to do so, if that is done to defend human kindness, understanding and justice

but, to defend 'collective punishment' - and the murdering of men, women and children to 'learn them a lesson' for kidnapping our soldiers (while you know you won't get them back with this anyway and besides restitutes 'alternative killing' etc. I'm out.

Sorry, Red tulips -

maybe I'm idealistic, but isn't that what they said of Herzl more than one hundred years ago?
 
A few things, Tsedek:

If I understand you correctly (I may not, so feel free to clarify), then your views are antisemitic.

I have nothing against Israelis holding Israel to a higher standard. But there is no reason the world has to hold Israel to a higher standard. Israel is a state as is any other. Why should, for instance, the UN focus on Israel to the exclusion of all other nations?

To believe that Israel should be held to higher standards than the rest of the world gives one standard to the one Jewish state, and another to the rest of the world. THAT is antisemitic.

As far as your notions about the 'evil' of collective punishment...

Firstly, Israel (in contrast to the butchers it fights) does all it can to avoid killing civilians. But secondly, in war, civilians will be killed. This is a fact.

I realize you would like to pretend war can be avoided, but it cannot. We live in the real world.

Israel did not ask for this war, but it was thrust upon it.

The sooner we accept this, the better. And it is unrighteous to not defend yourself in such a war. It is unrighteous to let butchers win.

Tsedek, you are more than idealistic. You think human kindness is going to win the day, and yet you ignore the fact that Israel is fighting an enemy whose goal is extermination. Your idealism is patently absurd. If Jews during the Holocaust were kind to Nazis, would it have stopped anything, changed anything? Of course not.

And yet this is the enemy that Israel faces today. It is the exact same enemy.

Israel should do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, but not with any lofty kumbaya goals in mind. If Israel upholds higher standards of human rights, it should do so because it values these human rights, not because it believes the absurdity that this would in any way change minds.

The day Israel lays down arms is the day it ceases to exist. That is the bottom line. Your views fit nicely in with what Gandhi said, and we all know how well his words worked out...

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest Gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment."

Source

In summation: I support human rights as a Jew, and as someone who is a Jew, I especially support the notion of universal human rights. But I question whether you really do believe in this, since you appear to be giving one standard to Jews, and another standard to everyone else.
 
Let me add one more thing, Tsedek...

The fact that Israel is cited as the most dangerous nation in the world is hardly the fault of Israel. It rather reflects the antisemitism of the world. On any objective level, Israel is not the most dangerous nation in the world.

Do you actually agree with the rest of the world's antisemitism? Do you actually believe it holds even one ounce of legitimacy?

And in conclusion...

Tsedek, the Torah is not accepted by the rest of the world. It ultimately thus means Jews have the right to hold Jews by the highest moral standards. It does not mean the rest of the world has that right.

Last I checked we live in a secular world, not some sort of theocracy guided by the Torah.
 
Once again, red tulips:

I don't care anything what 'the world' holds against or keep against Israeli's. we owe it to ourselves. by accepting the covenant placing us to be the 'chosen people' - maybe you think that meant getting extra candies, but the thing is that -spiritualy - it meant maybe something the jews cannot fulfill?

honestly: who cares what the world says? don't you have, foremost an obligation to teach your 'own' children? where did this lead to, when you see comments appearing on this entry like here above??

to 'follow' other inclinations of other people jews are not a 'light upon nations' - and, if they wanna make use of this privilege they also have to oblige to the obligations. maybe hard, maybe unreasonable, but still: THAT's the part they agreed upon before God.

Again, the world, the UN, what does it matter? they can do and claim whatever they want. really: again..... who cares??

To believe that Israel should be held to higher standards than the rest of the world gives one standard to the one Jewish state, and another to the rest of the world. THAT is antisemitic. Yes????? you really think so? I don't - 'chosen' (if made use of this principle) should accept the consequences attached to such obligation. If it would indeed give a different standard, then - by accepting God's conditions, that would be the way the world would have to, or will, follow - the standards God laid out for us.


If Jews during the Holocaust were kind to Nazis, That's why the jewish people were granted by God a country. Jews couldn't be 'kind' to nazi's, but in a state where THEY can call the rules, THEY gotta set the example.


Israel should NEVER lay down its arms. It should and is allowed, to ALWAYS defend itself. However: collective punishment and hijacking by institutions (like IDF authorities )- while covering up individual soldier's misconduct towards people accidently belonging to Israeli's enemies is NOT (!) excusable.

Now, you can call this whatever you want, anti-semitic (this btw is a 'new' one to me, although at home i'm called an 'enemy of the jewish people') or whatever:

it is my 100% conviction that legalizes Israel's existence as a 'light upon the nations' and I will always - nothwithstanding this very low comparison you just made - defend this.
 
Last I checked we live in a secular world, not some sort of theocracy guided by the Torah.

then you don't have the right to live here. on what grounds? not those made in the Torah? "the jewish people have a historical right to live here' ?

which claim do you make for jews living in this land if not on religious basis???

how come millions of jews came from all around the world to claim this land - if not for setting an example?

how come you drove the people objecting to this because they carry a different believe and attacked you for carrying out your believe away?

what do you base your right on, if not on 'historical' evidence? Hm?
 
Tsedek:

It's quite simple. The world does not believe in Judaism. The world (as a whole) does not accept the Torah as true.

If they did, then the world would be a very different place, wouldn't it?

Jews have a right to hold themselves to a higher standard. But the world does not have a right to hold Jews to a higher standard. They do not believe in the Torah, and have no right to selectively quote the passage about the obligation of Jews as chosen people to be a light upon the world. I cannot be more clear than this.

I am not Israeli, and so I have no right to hold Israel out to a higher standard than any other state. That said, I believe that Israel actually DOES uphold some of the HIGHEST human rights standards in the world - especially given the threat it faces.

Why does Israel exist? Hardly because Jews wish to live there as 'an example.' Rather, for many reasons, some secular, some religious. Lest we forget there are very secular reasons for supporting Israel's right to exist. The Jews have very long historical land claims. They purchased the land fair and square, and then there was the UN mandate. You combine that with the Holocaust (and Palestinian involvement in said Holocaust, via the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat's uncle), and I would say Jews have a VERY strong SECULAR connection to Israel.

Jews also have a religious connection to Israel, via the Torah. And in that religious connection, Jews have every right to wish to uphold the highest human rights possible.

But it's not for ANY non-Jew to judge whether a Jew is acting "Jewish enough." It is not for any non-Jew to judge whether Jews are abiding by the 613 mitzvahs, or truly "righteous." There is no legitimacy in the international community holding Israel out to different standards than any other nation.

If you actually believe it to be legitimate for NON-JEWS to hold Israel to a higher standard, then yes, that is an antisemitic viewpoint. But I was careful to word what I wrote, because I am not sure this is what you believe. You have not been crystal clear with what you believe.

I want to add something else...

I do not believe indiscriminate slaughter of civilians is cool, because I am a Jew and believe in Jewish values. But I am at a loss over why you are espousing Hezby propoganda when you say Israel engages in "collective punishment." This is very far from what Israel actually DOES.

And if the actions of Israel doing everything it can to avoid collective punishment are seen as so wrong to you, then I question when would it be okay for Israel to use force? Israel faced TWO genocidal organizations this past summer (Hamas and Hezby) and fought both with its hands tied behind its back. (the IDF was also not prepared as it should have been for the fight, but that's a different story)

When is it okay to fight genociders?

And lest we forget, Judaism is hardly a pacifistic religion.
 
Red Tulips:

t's quite simple. The world does not believe in Judaism.

you think I care?

Jews have a right to hold themselves to a higher standard. But the world does not have a right to hold Jews to a higher standard.

Again: you think I care?

srael actually DOES uphold some of the HIGHEST human rights standards in the world -

I believe so as well, although most certainly not the most important ones - I truly believe if it would happen to any country in the world what is happening to Israel a heell-fire of millions of victims would already be a fact, but ....

'we' are not any other country. to uphold the right of being [the chosen people) one HAS TO subordinate to different rules than 'other nations upon who one has to shine one's light'

Why does Israel exist? it doesn't matter. If you would be a 'believer' as I am this is irrelevant. Establishing the fact that it is a downright 'miracle' that Israel exists at all brings down the argument between 'secular' and 'religious'.



But I am at a loss over why you are espousing Hezby propoganda when you say Israel engages in "collective punishment." This is very far from what Israel actually DOES.

Is it??

I'm 'espousing' 'hezby propaganda' = which I'm most DEFINITELY NOT by saying that behind every facade stand a man, a human soul, a person that wants to be recognized and live his life without pitty or feeling that 'they' do them a bloody 'favor' by recognizing his right to exist, to be respected and live in dignity???



This is very far from what Israel actually DOES.

and - who says that 'israel' is actually following the original will of the people living in it? huh?

can I help it that they perform sonic booms over Gaza and think that by that 'they' will realize that it's better not to engage and/or provoke Israel? - while knowing that exactly that measure brings about the opposite and a virulent hate under the population of that region which would, notwithstanding the unstoppable propaganda leading away from their 'inner' conflicts blaming everything on 'scapegoat' Israel - rather live their lives as human beings as the rest of the world would, caring for their children and bringing bread to the table, like you and me?



when would it be okay for Israel to use force?

for me, each targeted killing of planners to sow more hatred and death by recruiting and planning suicide bombing would look just OK with me. I'm not going for the preventive sonic booms above gaza, not going for the 'routine' surveillance inside palestinian villages or towns just to show presence and who is "in charge" ( read: controlling you) of there.


when would it be okay for Israel to use force?

in case of and against everyone trying to destroy it. BUT(!) NO (!) alternative killing or collective punishment.


When is it okay to fight genociders?


Everytime - everwhere, always. no questions asked. the only thing that buggers: HOW?



And lest we forget, Judaism is hardly a pacifistic religion. did you read my link before? "judaism" like any other religion has two ways of chosing its interpretation to it: it's up to the individual person to make the choice which of the two paths he wishes to follow :)
 
Deze reactie is verwijderd door de auteur.
 
Tsedek, you are not making sense.

If Israel is to be a "light upon the world," it has to DEFEND ITSELF. It cannot be a "light upon the world" if it does not exist. The fight it faces is from Islamonazis, who were brainwashed from birth to hate. They hide amongst women and children, and FORCE Israel to shoot women and children. But THAT MEANS that the death of those women and children IS ON THE HEADS OF THE ISLAMONAZIS.

And no, I do not mince words. Look up the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat's uncle. These people are literally Nazis.

This is the threat Israel faces. It faces modern day Nazism. This is simply a fact.

Yes, human beings are Nazis, but the POINT is they are trying to kill Israelis.

It's a kill or be killed world. I fail to understand why YOU, an ISRAELI, simply seems to not be aware of this FACT.

The 'sonic booms' over Gaza...are you kidding? It's NOTHING in comparison to the daily deluge of rockets going over Sderot.

I agree that Israel has gone VERY FAR from its original purpose - they are not protecting its citizenry. They are letting Sderot residents hang out to dry.

Did YOU talk to an IDF soldier who said he actually SAW rocket launch pads in Gaza, and was told he could not shoot at them? Because I have.

Israel is simply abdicating its duty to protect its citizens, and THAT is a crime.

You are so worried that Israel is causing people to hate it...my answer is that the hatred is antisemitism, not anti-Israelness.

You do not see the hatred of Sudan from around the world. You do not see the hatred of Saudi Arabia, or Iran. No, it's all Israel, all the time.

Do you think this justified, or based on reality?

I will end this with yes or no questions...

Yes or no - Should Israel be held to a higher standard in the international community than any other nation on the planet?

Yes or no - Are non-Jews justified in holding Israel out to be a "light upon the nation?"

These are the bottom line questions that I have for you.
 
You know what, red tulips?

Think what you like to think and follow the path that politicians (with the help of the media) have set out for you to follow like a dumb sheep. Don't look behind the facade - because maybe you'll have to be embarassed for the things you blame your fellow human beings for.

You can ask questions but do you actually except me to adhere to your, conditions for answering it?

"yes, or no" - what's this? I answer the way I, chose without your conditions.

The world has absolutely nothing to say about Israel's moral. It are the Israeli people -the ones I meet in the street every day and while being in the Kupath Holim I hear old (formerly Iraqi) ladies ask "why don't the arabs wanna make peace with us?, that I feel obligated. Because they genuinely want peace but don't understand that peace will NEVER be achieved over the wrong-doing of another people, since they don't have a clue about the things that Palestinian people in day-to-day have to go through.

Yes, Red Tulips: I will defend Israel with my life (where are you situated exactly?) - I will really give my last drop of blood for this country - because it has a justified right to exist and is being demonized in front of the whole wide world while 2x2meters of space to live for the jewish people is even denied for them because of hatred. BUT(!) I don't see the hatred in the eyes of the little boys that come selling their stuff here in the streets making a living for the whole family back home. Don't you think that contradicts your 'theory'? I tell you something: I had this "little friend" Nabil. He used to sell smartutiem etc. and my closet is just full of smartutiem - but NEVER, EVER did I give him the feeling that I was buying out of pitty for his family for whom he had -at the age of 12(!) - to bring home money to live on.

Israel CANNOT impose collective punishment on a people already punished for 60 years. Got it, Red Tulips?

And, yes - I know there are extremists and terrorists - maybe it was you that evening when the disco at the dolfinarium got blasted while both your children had said that was the place they were going to, but in fact it was me: and yes: - my first reaction was : blow up all of Gaza. Until: I realized that the most sweetest boy and his loving parents who made me sorta godmother to him, were not only living there, but also wanted nothing else but just live and security and peace and make a living to put bread in the mouth of their children. and nothing, nothing else. So would I want them to be punished ??????????? for what bloody hell?


Stuff it with the platonic "the world" - "terrorists" - "you against me" - propaganda.

You live whereever you live, but I live here and I know that hiding behind the evil people wanting to destroy Israel and its people are living people just like me (and you). Do you deserve to be 'punished'? No? Why the F* then are they?

We, Jews, hold up a higher standard NOT to show off to the world (and thus your whole question of Should Israel be held to a higher standard in the international community t doesn't have ground to stand on: we, jews own it to ourselves to show ourselves a higher moral. That's extactly why gentiles have to perform 7 laws to get into heaven and jews 6hundred and something. )

so: your questions about 'international community" etc. are not so not important, you just don't have a clue -
 
i dont read comments anymore..

poor beautiful kids..

sad
 
Tsedek:

Here is my point, which YOU do not seem to have a clue about.

I think it just for ISRAELIS (not non-Israeli Jews around the world, ONLY ISRAELIS!) to hold ISRAELIS up to a higher moral standard. I simply do not think it just for THE WORLD to hold Israel up to a higher moral standard than any other nation.

I cannot get simpler than that.

I read what you wrote as saying that THE WORLD is justified in holding Israel out to a higher moral standard. And THAT is what I feel is wrong. (and THAT is what I also feel is antisemitic)

You refused to answer my simple questions which were aimed at merely figuring out whether you believed it just for NON-ISRAELIS to hold Israel to a higher moral standard. But that is what I was driving at.

As far as everything else...

I don't think Israel is fighting smart. Israel is hardly just bombing all of Gaza, as you somehow claim it is. As I said, I spoke to an IDF soldier who said he actually saw rocket launchpads and was told not to fire at them!! I also never once said Israel should bomb all of Gaza. (which Israel DOES NOT DO) I never once said Israel should purposely kill civilians. Never once in my life did I say that, nor do I think it. I also never once said that every single last Palestinian hates Israelis for their Jewishness, just as every last German during WWII did not hate Jews for their Jewishness.

But I know what is being taught in schools and mosques. I know what is being said in the media. I have met people (several!) who are so seemingly kind and loving, and then when you speak about Israel or Jews, you find the hatred that lurks underneath.

Again, it doesn't mean the Palestinians are a monolith, doesn't mean everyone thinks a certain way. But I have observed this. Even the organization that Nizo (who I honestly DO believe means well and wants peace) was involved with...ended up doing this. (I know Nizo had nothing to do with the violence due to his comments at Raccoon's blog here.

In conclusion...

You are focused on the 'suffering' of Palestinians for sixty years. You said as much...Israel CANNOT impose collective punishment on a people already punished for 60 years. Got it, Red Tulips?

But who is causing the suffering? Why is this going on? The Palestinians were offered a state on numerous occasions and turned them down. I no longer even believe in the two state solution. The Palestinians do not want it and will not accept it, and therefore it is not viable. If perhaps they were cool with a two state solution, then things would be different.

And so, that leads to the inevitable conclusion that you refuse to accept that the only way to defeat Nazism is through a military defeat. Not all Palestinians are Nazis, but it is an unfortunate fact that their 'government' (I use that term loosely) is ruled by Islamonazism.

Yes, I live far away, and so all I can do (and do) is lobby on behalf of Israel, send money, and visit when I have the chance. Maybe one day I will make aliyah. But I am not saying these things as some sort of a chickenhawk. I have family who served proudly in the IDF. But more importantly, my observations are just that...observations.

I am not urging Israel into war, or urging Israel to be obstinate, or urging Israel to engage in human rights violations.

Rather, I am observing the world that Israel exists in.

As an aside, you should read the world famous legal scholars Richard Posner and Gary Becker discussing 'collective punishment' from the 2006 war with Lebanon. You can read it here..
 
I just want to be as clear as possible.

If you want to hold Israel to a higher set of moral standards, that is your right, as an Israeli and a Jew. My only point is that the world has no right to similarly engage in such conduct. I also think that in YOUR OWN judgment, you seem to be missing the boat on the genocidal threat that Israel faces.

It is inhumane and counterproductive to just go around shooting civilians for no reason. However, it is similarly inhumane to let Israeli civilians die because of a negligence and/or lack of desire to protect Israeli civilians.

I do know Israel is guilty of only ONE of those crimes - the former. (see: capitulation at Sderot) Individual IDF soldiers, as opposed to the state, are guilty of engaging in human rights violations. I am fully aware of this. But this is not because the state glorifies violence or the killing of civilians. Rather, I view the reason to be related to Israel's patheticness in defending its civilians.

I spoke to an IDF combat soldier who fought in Lebanon in 2006, and he said that if he wanted to kill a civilian, he could have ON HIS OWN, and there is little the state would have done about it. This certainly is appalling. (he did not commit such acts)

But why does this happen?

I believe that individual acts of barbarism on the part of IDF soldiers is directly related to a feeling of helplessness soldiers have when they are told to stand down, when they see rocket launch pads in Gaza. It is the inevitable result. Normally kind, decent people devolve into barbarians when they see the state has failed them.

This is not limited to Israel. Witness the mayhem in Gujarat, India, after the state failed to act after the Godhra train bombing. (More on Gujarat right here)

This is what Israel has in store for it if it continues down the road towards capitulation. It will not be pretty.

You are fearful of 'collective punishment' of Gaza residents. I say that this is of a secondary concern, as the actions in Gaza are a fraction of what needs to happen. (no, I do not mean nuke the whole place - I mean GO AFTER THOSE TRYING TO KILL JEWS) Until Israel does the right thing, there will be increasing numbers of IDF soldiers who go off the deep end and kill civilians, in some misguided notion of vigilante justice. That is my prediction.
 
I think it just for ISRAELIS (not non-Israeli Jews around the world, ONLY ISRAELIS!) to hold ISRAELIS up to a higher moral standard. I simply do not think it just for THE WORLD to hold Israel up to a higher moral standard than any other nation.

I cannot get simpler than that.

I read what you wrote as saying that THE WORLD is justified in holding Israel out to a higher moral standard. And THAT is what I feel is wrong. (and THAT is what I also feel is antisemitic)


I really couldn't care less of what the 'world' thinks or want to hold Israel to. Really, that interests me noth, zero, effes. As a person cannot ever be responsible for the actions, norms, moral of other people, even their dear ones, that counts the same for Israel. Nobody can know what is actually going on here on the ground because everything is being drawn outta context to suit everyones 'own' agenda 'outside'. (the example for instance about those 'poor arab-israeli's that are so discriminated against'I find staggering. I work with loads of arab-israeli's and they are so not 'poor', I've been in arab-israeli villages that made me jealous wanting to live there as well - sure, there are arab-israeli's being discriminated against and 'poor' - but there are jewish-israeli's as well suffering from exactly the same thing. Only, would the 'outside world' - know that? No! They think that all jewish-Israeli's live wealthily and 95% of them came from Europe (really, someone made this claim very seriously on a forum not long ago) - So, here you have it: THEY don't have a clue as what is the truth.) Same applies for the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

That's why I don't care at all what 'the world' thinks of Israel. Let them be anti-semitic - I don't care: it's their conscience, not mine.

Are we clear about this now?
 
I don't think Israel is fighting smart. Israel is hardly just bombing all of Gaza, as you somehow claim it is. As I said, I spoke to an IDF soldier who said he actually saw rocket launchpads and was told not to fire at them!! I also never once said Israel should bomb all of Gaza. (which Israel DOES NOT DO) I never once said Israel should purposely kill civilians. Never once in my life did I say that, nor do I think it. I also never once said that every single last Palestinian hates Israelis for their Jewishness, just as every last German during WWII did not hate Jews for their Jewishness.

No, I wasn't saying that Gaza is being bombed. I know of the orders not to react to firing of qassams (that was soon after one of the so many 'understandings' were reached between Israel and Abu Mazen, not very long ago) -

but I am saying that bombing the electricity plant that lays Gaza in darkness and cold (could no way be fixed before the winter started) and the sonic booms which you seem to have the notion that are not so bad, but statistics prove that many pregnant women lost their baby's because of the effect those booms had on them, besides being a psychological 'weapon' to make 'them' understand 'they' should 'side with' the qassam firers, is inhumane, targetting a population that already lives under stress of their own authorities while not being able to do something about it - and -in my humble opinion- results in exactly the opposite effect Israel thought it would reach.
 
But I know what is being taught in schools and mosques. I know what is being said in the media. I have met people (several!) who are so seemingly kind and loving, and then when you speak about Israel or Jews, you find the hatred that lurks underneath.

Again, it doesn't mean the Palestinians are a monolith, doesn't mean everyone thinks a certain way. But I have observed this. Even the organization that Nizo (who I honestly DO believe means well and wants peace) was involved with...ended up doing this. (I know Nizo had nothing to do with the violence due to his comments at Raccoon's blog here.


I know. And that's horrible - but seen that nizo explained it's 'kid's stuff' compared to the things that are going on there when they raise education fees - I wouldn't want to use this as 'evidence'.

I have met people (several!) who are so seemingly kind and loving, and then when you speak about Israel or Jews, you find the hatred that lurks underneath.

And what do you do? Hate back? So they can hate even more? And then you can hate them more? Where is the end??

Why should I lower myself and be manipulated into hating them because they hate me? Why should I give them that power over me? Let them hate. It's their problem. Meanwhile I stay me because I refuse to satisfy their expectations of me as an Israeli.
And I know what you will say next: "but they hate you even if you don't satisfy their expectations" (right?) - but that's completely their problem. Hate eats from inside and let them deal with it on their own.
 
Tsedek:

I guess I totally misread you and/or misunderstood what you were writing! I assumed you meant something you didn't, hence my reaction. I am glad we cleared it all up, and I am sorry at how I misread things!

NOW! Onto the other things you said...

I believe Olmert is suicidally and criminally incompetent, as is Peretz. If I were in control (which I am not, duh), I would jail them. I am serious.

I know what Israel has done in Gaza. It is feckless incompetence AT BEST, treasonous anti-humanity actions at worst.

Instead of bombing the rocket launch pad stations, Israel sends sonic booms which stop NOTHING, and achieve NOTHING, other than anger residents.

I guess my indignation at it, though, rests more with the poor (and I do mean poor, they are not rich, lest we forget!) Sderot residents, who as a result, are living in sheer terror due to the government incompetence and negligence.

But in the end, everyone is hurt. Pregnant Gazans miscarry, IDF soldiers will go nuts and engage in vigilante justice, Sderot residents are killed and terrorized on a daily basis...

And none of this stops suicide bombing and rockets being launched.

It's disgusting and outrageous. Everyone loses out, except the genocidal maniacs of Hamas/Fatah, etc. Ultimately, this emboldens THEM!

Tsedek, I ask you...

Why is this going on? It tears at my soul to see this nonsense!!! Why are Olmert and Peretz so feckless, inept, corrupt, and suicidally incompetent?

That is something I do not get. Do they simply not care for the well being of their citizens?
 
But who is causing the suffering? Why is this going on? The Palestinians were offered a state on numerous occasions and turned them down.

I start to doubt this. Yep, sure Israel did its part and offered it, but... to whom? Until after the six-day war (and Arafat's PLO) the Palestinians never even had a chance to speak for themselves - all was said for them by their 'arab brothers' (the same ones that are so discriminating them in their own countries) - and now? Who listens to 'the' Palestinian? Who gets to speak to 'them' if they are not a 'newsworthy item' by our lovely world controlled media?
 
Tsedek:

The Palestinians had elections, and elected 'people' who are opposed to even the very existence of Israel. So we know who speaks for them.

And prior to Israel's creation, there was not even a NOTION of 'Palestinians.' This itself is a modern notion and modern invention. There was no one to 'speak for Palestinians' prior to 1967, as Palestinians simply did not exist as a somehow 'seperate' ethnicity, with its own unique voice, until then.

Here is a perfect example. Arab Israelis - they never called themselves "Palestinians in Israel" until recently. Jews who lived in Israel since recorded history (such as a friend I made when I was in Israel - she traces her family tree back hundreds of years to the land) - are excluded from the definition of "Palestinian." Nowadays, even Christians are being excluded.

So what does it mean to be Palestinian? This is a huge open question. Perhaps Nizo will have some insight into this.

---------

I do not hate the Palestinians as a people, even as I doubt their land claims to Israel. I do not hate Muslims as a people. But I hate a philosophy that is causing such grief in this world, a philosophy of religious extremism and hate that is far too mainstream. And I get very emotional when friends of mine (people who I think are friends) end of revealing themselves to be part of this nonsense, believing Zionists control the world, and Israel is behind 9/11. These are people who have Jewish friends, and think this way.

My reaction has been to this has been negative, and I actually stopped blogging for at least a month, until I could get back a voice that reports facts rather than resentment.

How do you control your anger when you encounter such people - friends - who sputter such nonsense?
 
Yes, I live far away,

And you've been to Jamaica and for that I'm stinking jealous in you :D
(By that I remembered you btw)

As an aside, you should read the world famous legal scholars Richard Posner and Gary Becker discussing 'collective punishment' from the 2006 war with Lebanon. You can read it here..

For me it doesn't make one bit of difference what 'famous' people say, I tend to decide for myself what I find ethical. That sounds very arrogant, but have proven the best instrument of measure till now for me since 'famous' people all over the world contradict eachother anyway.

From the moment I saw innocent people getting hurt I think the IDF should have chosen different tactics than bombing them. I know this is a difficult issue, and I'm not quite 'whole' with myself about how else the threat of weapons and rockets near the border could have been diverted differently - but surely there must be some professional military strategy people around that could have thought of something better than claiming innocent lives for seeing after a few months the weapon depots of the hizb as if no war existed.
 
I also think that in YOUR OWN judgment, you seem to be missing the boat on the genocidal threat that Israel faces.

and that only can be diverted by defending oneself in an ethical way.

I don't want to sound as someone who's 'in on the secrets' or anything like it, but I've lived here long enough to know that if there's gonna be a genocide than the whole of the middle-east will be victim of it and not only the jews.
 
Tsedek:

Do not be jealous of my Jamaica trip. It was awful. I left early, and I saw horrible poverty. I will not be back.

I know, I am crazy - I had a horrible time in Jamaica.

I also had a wonderful time in Israel!!!

-----

Tsedek:

Posner and Becker are more than famous people. They happen to be two of the most brilliant legal minds on the planet. (I am serious) I know you like to come up with your own way, but I find that reading them is always at least interesting, and provides a very thoughtful perspective. They are not mere talking heads, rather, they are literally considered the two smartest legal minds in America. (way ahead of Alan Dershowitz, who I also consider brilliant)

Anyway.

I happen to believe that bombing in Lebanon was justified. Remember that Israel gave advance notice for civilians to leave. However, overall, the war was pointless, due to Halutz's feckless incompetence in preparing the IDF, as well as Olmert and Peretz's fecklessly incompetent war strategy.

All those dead soldiers...killed for nothing, due to sheer incompetence.

Tragic. Really, it's enough to numb the soul.
 
I do know Israel is guilty of only ONE of those crimes - the former. (see: capitulation at Sderot) Individual IDF soldiers, as opposed to the state, are guilty of engaging in human rights violations. I am fully aware of this. But this is not because the state glorifies violence or the killing of civilians. Rather, I view the reason to be related to Israel's patheticness in defending its civilians.

That's because Israel doesn't care about its civilians. We're having a new 'star' appearing now who's slowly preparing the grounds for entering into politics that cared a whole lot more than the israeli government: Gaydemack. We'll see about that one. He's beitar jerusalem so that gives him a 'pre' in my eyes, cause I's a supporter as well :D

I spoke to an IDF combat soldier who fought in Lebanon in 2006, and he said that if he wanted to kill a civilian, he could have ON HIS OWN, and there is little the state would have done about it. This certainly is appalling. (he did not commit such acts)

I had a little friend killed by an IDF'er who's still walking around freely. The boy was a mongolistic boy and it hurts to say that his family and village were way less nice to him than the Israeli soldiers whom he used to visit every day in their outpost. However, there was this creep - and here we are :-( Daoud is dead, because those real sweet soldiers he trusted had a treasonar in their midst....
 
I hope what I am saying makes sense.

I believe the war with Hizballah was ethical and justified in THEORY, due to Hizby actions. However, the pathetic and inept way Israel fought the war was not inethical to the Lebanese, so much as it was inethical to ISRAELIS. The IDF (led by the corrupt and feckless Israeli government) let the Israeli people (and good Lebanese, who wanted and needed Hizballah disbanded) down.

And now Hizballah is back, and almost back to where they used to be.

All due to feckless, suicidal, disgusting incompetence. Israel needs regime change.

I am more convinced of this than ever before, after I engaged in a very long talk (for hours on end) with an IDF combat unit soldier who fought in Lebanon. What he discussed was horrifying to listen to.

And the UN 1701 compromise plan...don't get me started!
 
One last thing...

I find it quite astonishing that people claim "Zionists control the world," when if you look at REALITY, true Zionists do not even control Israel!

After all, I do not consider Olmert and Peretz, and their merry band of incompetents to be true zionists.

Ironic, no?
 
Instead of bombing the rocket launch pad stations,

you seem to think that happens all the time, but I will remind you that that is NOT so. rocket launch pad stations (they're mobile) - are usually being destroyed by the IDF. the case you refer to is straight after a sorta armistice agreement was reached and israel didn't want to drag into it again.
 
Tsedek, I ask you...

Why is this going on? It tears at my soul to see this nonsense!!! Why are Olmert and Peretz so feckless, inept, corrupt, and suicidally incompetent?

That is something I do not get. Do they simply not care for the well being of their citizens?


No. They care for power. Peretz was good one time but I suppose power corrupts everyone finally. While living in a multimillion dollar mansion, what else would he want to achieve but power, this Olmert?
 
Tsedek:

The Palestinians had elections, and elected 'people' who are opposed to even the very existence of Israel. So we know who speaks for them.


can you tell how I can place links here , I want to show you something...
 
And prior to Israel's creation, there was not even a NOTION of 'Palestinians.' This itself is a modern notion and modern invention. There was no one to 'speak for Palestinians' prior to 1967, as Palestinians simply did not exist as a somehow 'seperate' ethnicity, with its own unique voice, until then.

Neither did Israeli's but that didn't stop them from speaking out loud...
 
Tsedek:

A link can be placed this way:

(a href="http://www.link.com")words here(/a)

Replace () with <>

Cheers,

Red Tulips
 
Here is a perfect example. Arab Israelis - they never called themselves "Palestinians in Israel" until recently. Jews who lived in Israel since recorded history (such as a friend I made when I was in Israel - she traces her family tree back hundreds of years to the land) - are excluded from the definition of "Palestinian." Nowadays, even Christians are being excluded.

So what does it mean to be Palestinian? This is a huge open question. Perhaps Nizo will have some insight into this.


Does it matter? No, really! What does it matter what one calls the other? It depends on what you call yourselves. I know that "Palestine today" a newspaper online traces back to 1930 - so whoever lived here then was Palestinian, I suppose...
 
I do not hate the Palestinians as a people, even as I doubt their land claims to Israel. I do not hate Muslims as a people. But I hate a philosophy that is causing such grief in this world, a philosophy of religious extremism and hate that is far too mainstream. And I get very emotional when friends of mine (people who I think are friends) end of revealing themselves to be part of this nonsense, believing Zionists control the world, and Israel is behind 9/11. These are people who have Jewish friends, and think this way.

My reaction has been to this has been negative, and I actually stopped blogging for at least a month, until I could get back a voice that reports facts rather than resentment.

How do you control your anger when you encounter such people - friends - who sputter such nonsense?


It depends. If they talk about 'the' zionists and 'the' israeli's' and worldcontrol and all that nonsense then I let them. It's their chosen way of thinking. However if someone calls me a 'bloodthirsty zionist' (and I've been called that at forums and worse than that) after knowing me, then I ignore them completely from that moment on. They just don't exist for me anymore.

I can easily write things about for example the Hamas calling them terrorists and that's my opinion about them, however - if I know a person belonging to the Hamas and that person is a nice person convicted with the ideology that is interpretated by the Hamas rather then wanting really something bad for me or anybody - I won't call him a terrorist.

There's probably a lot of psychology hiding behind such feelings I carry with me instinctively I suppose and I can't explain - but in the end it totals to not directly condemning people as people....
 
I find it quite astonishing that people claim "Zionists control the world," when if you look at REALITY, true Zionists do not even control Israel!


"true" zionists would care for ALL the people. that's not happening either. the way people working for municipalities didn't get paid for months in a row - the injust spenditure between rich and poor - the 'protection' practices scratching each others back....

it's just not "true" enough for my taste:

(and, being a believer and thus sometimes allowed to have "irrational" opnions, I also believe that's the reason why Israel is still in trouble: the greed and corruption in what should be a good example country prevent positive processes from taking place - and yes I know! I'm totally looney for thinking so, but I do)
 
Tsedek:

Your link probably did not work as you meant it to.

Anyway, I have heard that line a million times. Hamas was elected for their 'social programs.' And yet look at the world today! Sewage in the street in Gaza! Some 'social programs!'

Electing Nazis because they make the trains run on time is not a justification. Sorry, it is not.

As far as talk of Zionists controlling the world...

Sorry, it's not acceptable, even if it's just "their way of thinking." It's antisemitism.

FINALLY!

Jews have historically cared about the well being of the world - tikkun olam - while no one (or very few, I should say) cared for the Jews. This is just historical reality.

The same is abundantly true today.

Thus, my philosophy is that I care about Jews first, above anyone else. I do not think Jews are superior as people. (though the more I learn about Judaism, I think it to be a superior way to lead your life) Rather, I know no one else will care for Jews unless we do. That doesn't mean I don't also have other interests and concerns. But Jews and Israel is number one in my list of concerns. Of course, none of this means any means justify the ends of protecting Jews and Israel. Jews cease to be righteous and worth this concern if they become as bad as the butchering suiciders. Of course, Jews and Israel are very far from that degeneracy, and this is especially ironic given the worldwide 'condemnation' for Israel.

In any case, that is why holding a higher standard for yourself is so important. One of the most necessary forms of protection is moral protection against the degeneracy of hate. Sometimes it is hard to keep this in mind, when faced with the threats we have today.

This is why Golda Meir's quotation is so poignant:

"We can forgive them for killing our children. We will never forgive them for making us kill their children."

Quite a speaker, that Golda.
 
In war innocent people get hurt. That is no reason to change military tactics if those tactics will win the war quicker and with less lost of life of the people on your side.

You have to be more ruthless than the enemy during a war.
 
Electing Nazis because they make the trains run on time is not a justification. Sorry, it is not.

It's about more than trains running on time. It's about shattered lifes and personal insecurity, large scale corruption and hopelessness. I don't think they are that concerned about how they get out of that slump as long as they do, grabbing every ray of hope that promises them that. I think for you and me it's easy to talk about what we condemn and moral ethics - not having lived in the continuous desparation in our day-to-day life all our life - but they just want a life. You know: when you're at the bottom of the well you will climb up the rope that anyone, no matter who, throws down for you, without questions asked. We are like the people standing on top shouting down at them "stay down, don't grab that ladder, the ones throwing it at you are trying to kill me" - but it's just not basic human instinct not to care for survival first, so don't condemn when you're not down there...
 
Sorry, it's not acceptable, even if it's just "their way of thinking." It's antisemitism.

Great. So how do you plan to eliminate antisemitism? By fighting? By returning the hate? I don't accept it either (duh!!!) but that still doesn't mean I let myself be manipulated into hating. I am the ONLY one that controls my behavior, emotions and feelings and when I give them the chance to control mine, they have won.

So, again: how do you think you can fight antisemitism?
 
But Jews and Israel is number one in my list of concerns.

Mine too, together with knowing that my concerns about jews and israel is unequivocally connected to the concern of jews and israel of fellow-human beings.
 
Thus, my philosophy is that I care about Jews first, above anyone else.

Also the hilltop-one-man-settler with the gun in his hand preventing people who own the land to harvest their fruits?
 
Tsedek:

I do not remain friends with virulent antisemites. Nothing will change them, certainly not my friendship. You are hopelessly naive if you think you will change someone who thinks Zionists control the world. The only way to combat antisemitism is to affect those who do not already hate.

As far as your talk about 'Palestinians,' sorry, you are flat out wrong. The Palestinians are not mentally retarded. They know what Hamas stands for, and they voted for them. The Nazis too came to power at a time when the Germans were suffering from a terrible economic depression.

What you wrote is a reason, not an excuse. Perhaps 'Palestinians' were simply disgusted with 'Fatah' and wanted change. But they voted in Hamas. They did not have to. It was a fair election.

And anoniem is right. We have to remember that this is war. It's easy to forget, but it's an unfortunate fact.
 
Here is a good video about people like tsedek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c
 
The Palestinians are not mentally retarded.
No. But they are emotionally affected, throtten upon, despuised by everyone, being kept in a vacuum of 60 years ago by the whole blooming world (including and foremost their 'own leaders') and just generally in a different mindset than the rest of the world that has gone on with the generations and progress (emotionally, sentiment directed).

I don't know actually how many would like to turn time back as if nothing happened from then till now as in my new posting hereabove, but I do know that they never got the chance to think about themselves being put into camps at the world's whole interest having 'ready-to-be-employed' pawns in all these international political games, Red Tulips.

And that's what makes me sick: I see people, no pawns.
 
Tsedek:

Again, you give reasons, not excuses.

Nothing excuses voting in genociders. There is not a single thing that can justify it. By that reasoning, it was understandable why Nazis came to power because those poor Germans were humiliated by the world in the Treaty of Versailles, and post WWI world.

No, not understandable then. Not understandable now.

No justification.
 
Red Tulips, but nothing stopped the coming of the nazi's to power because the reason for their feelings was not recognized. Suppose the world would have recognized the humiliation/bad economic situation and taken measures to improve on conditions and general feelings of people in Germany, do you still think the nazi's would have had a majority support? Would they have made it to government then?

OK, you're right: no justification at all I agree, but concluding so doesn't stop it. It's great, and it should be, forbidden and denounced - but, in the end, isn't it far more effective not creating the situations for people to fall in that trap?
 
Tsedek:

On this we are in agreement, and there are some things Israel can do that are practical, that it is not doing.

1) Only attack the Palestinians when there is an indication it will be effective. (i.e., no sonic booms!) That said - ATTACK WHEN THERE'S SUCH INDICATION! (i.e., those rocket launch pads not bombed)

2) Do not prop up another genocider under the pretense that this monster is somehow 'moderate.' (by that I mean, Abu Mazen/Mahmood Abbas)

3) Do more to integrate Arab Israelis into society, to the extent possible.

4) Totally revise the educational system. I think the educational system should be 100% secular, including for Arab Israelis. Then let Jews learn about Judaism in Jewish schools. I spoke to Israelis who were totally turned off to Judaism, perhaps in part because they learn about the Torah in regular school. (Okay, that does not affect Palestinians, but I still think it's necessary) I must stress that Arab Israelis cannot be taught that May 14 is "Al-Nakba." This creates a situation where there are two nations within one - and where there is Arab Israeli support for Palestinian terror!

5) Ban all non-zionist parties from the Knesset. If Kach is to be banned, so should be Balad. This weakens resolve.

6) As far as Palestinians go...there won't be that support for suicide bombing if they do not see it as effective. Now let's look at this new society...

Balad is banned, people take more pride in their Judaism (given they are not shoved Judaism down their throats in a secular setting), no genociders are propped up, the Palestinians know they will be attacked if they attack, and Arab Israelis back Israel...

Suddenly, the support for suicide bombing ends, as they see it will not demoralize.

Why do they hate? They hate because they are taught so in schools, the media, and mosques. The mosque part is key, and helps explain the lack of Christian suicide bombers. They do not hate because they are the "poor, suffering, Palestinians," except to the extent that their OWN LEADERS are hurting them. (and also because of Israeli reaction to terror - such as building a defensive fence, checkpoints, etc) But this hate does exist because it is seen as effective.

Show them it will not be effective, and I think this MIGHT change their world perspective.

Similarly, if the Neville Chamberlain policy of appeasement was not in place pre-WWII, then support for Nazis would have dropped quite considerably, I assure you.

Ask yourself why there are relatively few German Nazis today?

Answer: Nazism was defeated.

In parallel, the Palestinian terrorism either needs to be totally defeated in an all out war, or all out war may be prevented by stopping this policy of appeasement and patheticness in the face of terror. Show the Palestinians they will NOT WIN - convince them of this - and the mass support for terror will drop.

Just as the mass support for Nazism dropped amongst Germans.
 
Red tulips:


I LIKE abu mazen. He cares about his people's situation and I saw him cry on tv wayyyy long before he ever became anything in the political system when asked about the Palestinian children.

My conviction is that someone who cares about 'his own' - also is a reliable partner for negotiation since it are the ones that don't care about anything but something they interpretate as 'divine' (eventhough they're just human beings made out of flesh and blood like you and me and everybody else) that are the ones to be careful of.

THEREFORE, I don't agree with your assesment ;-)
 
Tsedek:

And your proof of this supposed moderation is...where?

Representatives of Abbas recently, just yesterday, said he will arm Hamas. source The al aqsa brigades, the armed wing of Fatah, regularly have slaughtered Jewish civilians in Israel. he was the right hand man of Arafat.

Again I ask you...your proof of Abbas's moderation is...where?
 
There is not. There only is the recognition of caring. Caring for people, one's 'own' or those of others doesn't matter, in itself is the prime ingredient for having a common recognizable emotion. Again: it the non caring one can't speak with, those who send off their own flesh and blood to 'heaven' (ya'ani) one must distrust.

In case you didn't get it: the only enemy Israel has are the ones that glorify death above life.

Abu Mazen cried, and not voluntarily and against his will and way before he became anything 'political' -

tears melt away hatred -

You can stand up and consider everyone with the same measure as an enemy of israel and dangerous to its existence. I don't. You gotta realize that enemies of Israel EXIST, but there are different kind of enemies. Those human and those monsters (tears against preaching love for death).
 
Tsedek:

Are you joking?

Abu Mazen cried, so the fact that he was Arafat's (a Nazi) deputy is irrelevant? The fact that he is in charg eof Fatah, which has a terror wing (al aqsa) is irrelevant?

Reality speaks differently.
 
Think about Sharon and Begin and how they are perceived on the 'other side'. We can go on endless discussions - perceptions cannot be changed and Abu Mazen has showed, by his tears for me, that there is a human being we can talk to - instead of a walking propaganda machine, Red Tulips.
 
Are you now saying that Sharon and Begin = Arafat?

I will use an analogy.

Suppose Hitler cried. Would that change anything?

Actions speak louder than 'tears.'
 
Een reactie posten



<< Home

This page is powered by Blogger. Isn't yours?