chamsa

I agree with the man's last words that if the new Pal govt. doesn't ensure security, we're heading towards a situation similar to that in Iraq.
 

People haven't become monsters.

They have always been monsters. You should know that as much as anyone.

So, what do you do to defeat a monster? BECOME A BIGGER MONSTER.

Speaking as a mum wouldn't you rather have it be their children this happens to than yours.

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/TheForgottenRachels.html
 

Palestinians have bred their children from birth to be monsters.

After reading about all the "forgotten Rachels I agree with anony here.

Whatever violence the Palestinians might experience they have brought upon themselves. When I see a picture of a dead Palestinian kid I say GREAT! One less of them to around to be killing us.

Here is a video from America that sums up my thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9oX5Q2ftmA
 

The point I believe that Anonymous was making was that it either could be their children or your children.

Given that choice I want to be part of making sure that its THEIR CHILDREN!
 

Check this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttLgzrT8k0

Monsters don't even com close to describing what these people are. They are so evil that we really don't have words for them.

The only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian, and that goes for their children as well.
 

Here's another link to that video.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_mamareem2007.asx

We must understand that the Palestinians don't have children. At least not in the way we think of children.

Palestinians are Natural Born Killers from Birth.

I would have no problem with looking a Palestinian child in his or her face and put a bullet in their head.

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_mamareem2007.asx
 

Oh, looking the Palies can make a video.

Well so can we!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI

http://www.stuckmojomedia.com/audio/Stuck_Mojo_For_The_Cause_Of_Allah.mp3

I speak peace when peace is spoken, But I speak war when your hate is provoking, The season is open 24-7-365, Man up yo time to ride, No need to hide behind slogans of deceit, Claiming that you're a religion of peace, We just don't believe you, We can clearly see through, The madness that you're feeding your people, Jihad the cry of your unholy war, Using the willing, the weak and poor, From birth drowning in propaganda, rhetoric and slander, All we can say is damn ya

My forefathers fought and died for this here
I'm stronger than your war of fear
Are we clear?
If you step in my hood
It's understood
It's open season

I don't need a faith that's blind, Where death and hate bring me peace of mind, With views that are stuck deep in the seventh century, So much sand in your eyes to blind to see, The venom that you leaders preach, Is the path to your own destruction, Your own demise, You might say that I don't understand but your disgust for me is what I realize, Surprise!
Your homicidal ways has got the whole world watching, Whole world scoping, So if you bring it to my home base, Best believe it, The season's open

I see you, Hell yeah I see you, Motherfucker naw, I don't wanna be you, If you come to my place, I'll drop more than just some bass, Yo you'll get a taste of a, Sick motherfucker from the Dirty, I ain't worrying not a fucking bit, I'm telescoping like Hubble, Yo you in trouble, Yo on the double, I'm wild with mine, Bring that style with mine, Fuck with my family I'll end your life, Just the way it is, Just the way it be, Do you understand? No matter if you're woman or man, or child, My profile is crazy, That shit you do doesn't amaze me, I'm ready to blaze thee

I don't give a damn what god you claim, I've seen the innocent that you've slain, On my streets you're just fair game, Like a pig walk to your slaughter, The heat here is so much hotter, And my views won't teeter totter or fluctuate, Step to me you just met your fate, And I'll annihilate, With the skill of a Shogun assassin, Slicing and dicing precise with a passion, In any shape form or fashion, Bring it to my home, Welcome to the danger zone, Cause your attitude's the reason, The triggers keep squeezing, The hunt is on and it's open season

It's Open Season

--

No matter if you're woman or man, or child, My profile is crazy, That shit you do doesn't amaze me, I'm ready to blaze thee...
 

Fuck with my family I'll end your life, Just the way it is, Just the way it be, Do you understand? No matter if you're woman or man, or child, My profile is crazy, That shit you do doesn't amaze me, I'm ready to blaze thee...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI

The only Good Palie is a dead one. Call it racism if you like. I call it protecting me and mine!
 

'we' = human beings strive to ensure our own children's safety.

The only way WE can do that is to kill as many of their children as possible!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymLJz3N8ayI
 

The only way WE can do that is to kill as many of their children as possible!

You are a bloodthirsty, simplistic monster who sees things in black and white. There is no colour in your world.

I'm Palestinian and I do not harbour a single bad intention towards your people. I was also a Palestinian child at some point, would you have killed me?
 

where did these 'anonymous' people here come from? :(
 

Nizo, have you seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqHUdwePfbM
 

Nizo,

If I was in a situation where it was your life or mine or even worse your life or my child, Yeah I would have killed you even when you were a child.

You Palies aren't going to be able use children as terrorists thinking that we are going to be surprised or will hesitate due to the attackers young age. I don't mind putting a bullet between some four year old terrorist's eyes. I won't even give it a second thought.
 

Tsedek said...

where did these 'anonymous' people here come from? :(

LOL

i bet its from nizo's blog ..

its this guy .. israel-defender or how he called himself ?

:D
 

Well, the moonbat season is officially open now.
 

Killing a Palestinian child isn't revenge.

It's prevention.

They are no better than junk yard dogs. They are trained from birth to kill.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqHUdwePfbM
 

we were unfair to aA.G ... i am plainly starting missing the guy .. lets call him to come back to take over the thread ... with all his deficiencies he at least tried to play an intellectual

;)
 

no tsedek

but i am bored with this A.G ... the worst thing that could have happened to him, have eventually happened ... he lost the shine of being a representative of a militant fundamentalist movement that was fascinating so many people at the beginning .. he has simply become boring ...

who can listen for hours for this 'we are opressed ..they dont like us ...they are racists' ???

also i have a different moral concept than you .. mine is based on responsibility ... A.G is a deeply irresponsible person .. as most of them ... they got loads of problems .. they may be leading their shia community in lebanon for one of the worst shia disasters in modern history .. and he is plainly more interested in israel and this anti west thing ... his good intentions and idealism dont count for me..

in the same way if anything happens to this country because of some delusional idealistic thinking of your style, i will hold you and other people like you directly responsible ... i dont excuse wishful thinking any more than a vicious thinking ...i grew up in a country that was wrecked by the idealists whose style of thinking and a way of expressing themselves is startlingly similar to that of A.G and other fundamentalist idealists ...

for me good intentions are no excuse if they cause people to ignore the obvious and endanger people around and their families for the sake of some utopia ... and for me being irresponsible in this sense equals being immoral ...
 

Tsedek:

Israel has a special duty to uphold high moral standards for its own citizens. But I do not see why the world should hold Israel out to any higher standards than anyone else.

Why are you saying that Israel should be treated differently than any nation in the world? (assuming that is what you are saying)

If that is indeed what you are saying, I find that wrong and offensive, especially coming from an Israeli.

On to the other comments...As far as the killing a Palestinian child, I do not see it ever justified if it could be avoided. It's wrong to celebrate a death or wish for the death of civilians, but ultimately, and this is where perhaps we differ...the option of no death is simply not an option.

Tsedek, what you are espousing is idealistic and nice, but ultimately not reality. The fact of the matter remains that the Middle East is a violent place, and there are millions of jihadists and would be jihadists in the Middle East. This is simply a fact. And a death of an Israeli child is wholly different from the death of a Palestinian child. Israeli children are targets of Palestinian suicide bombers. Palestinian children are killed either accidentally, or because they were aiming to shoot and kill Israelis. This is reality.

There is no equivalency. A death is always sad, always the loss of a human life. But it does not mean there is ever an equivalency of moral culpability. There is none.

I just hope that you realize that, as an Israeli.
 

A few things, Tsedek:

If I understand you correctly (I may not, so feel free to clarify), then your views are antisemitic.

I have nothing against Israelis holding Israel to a higher standard. But there is no reason the world has to hold Israel to a higher standard. Israel is a state as is any other. Why should, for instance, the UN focus on Israel to the exclusion of all other nations?

To believe that Israel should be held to higher standards than the rest of the world gives one standard to the one Jewish state, and another to the rest of the world. THAT is antisemitic.

As far as your notions about the 'evil' of collective punishment...

Firstly, Israel (in contrast to the butchers it fights) does all it can to avoid killing civilians. But secondly, in war, civilians will be killed. This is a fact.

I realize you would like to pretend war can be avoided, but it cannot. We live in the real world.

Israel did not ask for this war, but it was thrust upon it.

The sooner we accept this, the better. And it is unrighteous to not defend yourself in such a war. It is unrighteous to let butchers win.

Tsedek, you are more than idealistic. You think human kindness is going to win the day, and yet you ignore the fact that Israel is fighting an enemy whose goal is extermination. Your idealism is patently absurd. If Jews during the Holocaust were kind to Nazis, would it have stopped anything, changed anything? Of course not.

And yet this is the enemy that Israel faces today. It is the exact same enemy.

Israel should do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, but not with any lofty kumbaya goals in mind. If Israel upholds higher standards of human rights, it should do so because it values these human rights, not because it believes the absurdity that this would in any way change minds.

The day Israel lays down arms is the day it ceases to exist. That is the bottom line. Your views fit nicely in with what Gandhi said, and we all know how well his words worked out...

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest Gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment."

Source

In summation: I support human rights as a Jew, and as someone who is a Jew, I especially support the notion of universal human rights. But I question whether you really do believe in this, since you appear to be giving one standard to Jews, and another standard to everyone else.
 

Let me add one more thing, Tsedek...

The fact that Israel is cited as the most dangerous nation in the world is hardly the fault of Israel. It rather reflects the antisemitism of the world. On any objective level, Israel is not the most dangerous nation in the world.

Do you actually agree with the rest of the world's antisemitism? Do you actually believe it holds even one ounce of legitimacy?

And in conclusion...

Tsedek, the Torah is not accepted by the rest of the world. It ultimately thus means Jews have the right to hold Jews by the highest moral standards. It does not mean the rest of the world has that right.

Last I checked we live in a secular world, not some sort of theocracy guided by the Torah.
 

Tsedek:

It's quite simple. The world does not believe in Judaism. The world (as a whole) does not accept the Torah as true.

If they did, then the world would be a very different place, wouldn't it?

Jews have a right to hold themselves to a higher standard. But the world does not have a right to hold Jews to a higher standard. They do not believe in the Torah, and have no right to selectively quote the passage about the obligation of Jews as chosen people to be a light upon the world. I cannot be more clear than this.

I am not Israeli, and so I have no right to hold Israel out to a higher standard than any other state. That said, I believe that Israel actually DOES uphold some of the HIGHEST human rights standards in the world - especially given the threat it faces.

Why does Israel exist? Hardly because Jews wish to live there as 'an example.' Rather, for many reasons, some secular, some religious. Lest we forget there are very secular reasons for supporting Israel's right to exist. The Jews have very long historical land claims. They purchased the land fair and square, and then there was the UN mandate. You combine that with the Holocaust (and Palestinian involvement in said Holocaust, via the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat's uncle), and I would say Jews have a VERY strong SECULAR connection to Israel.

Jews also have a religious connection to Israel, via the Torah. And in that religious connection, Jews have every right to wish to uphold the highest human rights possible.

But it's not for ANY non-Jew to judge whether a Jew is acting "Jewish enough." It is not for any non-Jew to judge whether Jews are abiding by the 613 mitzvahs, or truly "righteous." There is no legitimacy in the international community holding Israel out to different standards than any other nation.

If you actually believe it to be legitimate for NON-JEWS to hold Israel to a higher standard, then yes, that is an antisemitic viewpoint. But I was careful to word what I wrote, because I am not sure this is what you believe. You have not been crystal clear with what you believe.

I want to add something else...

I do not believe indiscriminate slaughter of civilians is cool, because I am a Jew and believe in Jewish values. But I am at a loss over why you are espousing Hezby propoganda when you say Israel engages in "collective punishment." This is very far from what Israel actually DOES.

And if the actions of Israel doing everything it can to avoid collective punishment are seen as so wrong to you, then I question when would it be okay for Israel to use force? Israel faced TWO genocidal organizations this past summer (Hamas and Hezby) and fought both with its hands tied behind its back. (the IDF was also not prepared as it should have been for the fight, but that's a different story)

When is it okay to fight genociders?

And lest we forget, Judaism is hardly a pacifistic religion.
 

Deze reactie is verwijderd door de auteur.
 

Tsedek, you are not making sense.

If Israel is to be a "light upon the world," it has to DEFEND ITSELF. It cannot be a "light upon the world" if it does not exist. The fight it faces is from Islamonazis, who were brainwashed from birth to hate. They hide amongst women and children, and FORCE Israel to shoot women and children. But THAT MEANS that the death of those women and children IS ON THE HEADS OF THE ISLAMONAZIS.

And no, I do not mince words. Look up the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Arafat's uncle. These people are literally Nazis.

This is the threat Israel faces. It faces modern day Nazism. This is simply a fact.

Yes, human beings are Nazis, but the POINT is they are trying to kill Israelis.

It's a kill or be killed world. I fail to understand why YOU, an ISRAELI, simply seems to not be aware of this FACT.

The 'sonic booms' over Gaza...are you kidding? It's NOTHING in comparison to the daily deluge of rockets going over Sderot.

I agree that Israel has gone VERY FAR from its original purpose - they are not protecting its citizenry. They are letting Sderot residents hang out to dry.

Did YOU talk to an IDF soldier who said he actually SAW rocket launch pads in Gaza, and was told he could not shoot at them? Because I have.

Israel is simply abdicating its duty to protect its citizens, and THAT is a crime.

You are so worried that Israel is causing people to hate it...my answer is that the hatred is antisemitism, not anti-Israelness.

You do not see the hatred of Sudan from around the world. You do not see the hatred of Saudi Arabia, or Iran. No, it's all Israel, all the time.

Do you think this justified, or based on reality?

I will end this with yes or no questions...

Yes or no - Should Israel be held to a higher standard in the international community than any other nation on the planet?

Yes or no - Are non-Jews justified in holding Israel out to be a "light upon the nation?"

These are the bottom line questions that I have for you.
 

i dont read comments anymore..

poor beautiful kids..

sad
 

Tsedek:

Here is my point, which YOU do not seem to have a clue about.

I think it just for ISRAELIS (not non-Israeli Jews around the world, ONLY ISRAELIS!) to hold ISRAELIS up to a higher moral standard. I simply do not think it just for THE WORLD to hold Israel up to a higher moral standard than any other nation.

I cannot get simpler than that.

I read what you wrote as saying that THE WORLD is justified in holding Israel out to a higher moral standard. And THAT is what I feel is wrong. (and THAT is what I also feel is antisemitic)

You refused to answer my simple questions which were aimed at merely figuring out whether you believed it just for NON-ISRAELIS to hold Israel to a higher moral standard. But that is what I was driving at.

As far as everything else...

I don't think Israel is fighting smart. Israel is hardly just bombing all of Gaza, as you somehow claim it is. As I said, I spoke to an IDF soldier who said he actually saw rocket launchpads and was told not to fire at them!! I also never once said Israel should bomb all of Gaza. (which Israel DOES NOT DO) I never once said Israel should purposely kill civilians. Never once in my life did I say that, nor do I think it. I also never once said that every single last Palestinian hates Israelis for their Jewishness, just as every last German during WWII did not hate Jews for their Jewishness.

But I know what is being taught in schools and mosques. I know what is being said in the media. I have met people (several!) who are so seemingly kind and loving, and then when you speak about Israel or Jews, you find the hatred that lurks underneath.

Again, it doesn't mean the Palestinians are a monolith, doesn't mean everyone thinks a certain way. But I have observed this. Even the organization that Nizo (who I honestly DO believe means well and wants peace) was involved with...ended up doing this. (I know Nizo had nothing to do with the violence due to his comments at Raccoon's blog here.

In conclusion...

You are focused on the 'suffering' of Palestinians for sixty years. You said as much...Israel CANNOT impose collective punishment on a people already punished for 60 years. Got it, Red Tulips?

But who is causing the suffering? Why is this going on? The Palestinians were offered a state on numerous occasions and turned them down. I no longer even believe in the two state solution. The Palestinians do not want it and will not accept it, and therefore it is not viable. If perhaps they were cool with a two state solution, then things would be different.

And so, that leads to the inevitable conclusion that you refuse to accept that the only way to defeat Nazism is through a military defeat. Not all Palestinians are Nazis, but it is an unfortunate fact that their 'government' (I use that term loosely) is ruled by Islamonazism.

Yes, I live far away, and so all I can do (and do) is lobby on behalf of Israel, send money, and visit when I have the chance. Maybe one day I will make aliyah. But I am not saying these things as some sort of a chickenhawk. I have family who served proudly in the IDF. But more importantly, my observations are just that...observations.

I am not urging Israel into war, or urging Israel to be obstinate, or urging Israel to engage in human rights violations.

Rather, I am observing the world that Israel exists in.

As an aside, you should read the world famous legal scholars Richard Posner and Gary Becker discussing 'collective punishment' from the 2006 war with Lebanon. You can read it here..
 

I just want to be as clear as possible.

If you want to hold Israel to a higher set of moral standards, that is your right, as an Israeli and a Jew. My only point is that the world has no right to similarly engage in such conduct. I also think that in YOUR OWN judgment, you seem to be missing the boat on the genocidal threat that Israel faces.

It is inhumane and counterproductive to just go around shooting civilians for no reason. However, it is similarly inhumane to let Israeli civilians die because of a negligence and/or lack of desire to protect Israeli civilians.

I do know Israel is guilty of only ONE of those crimes - the former. (see: capitulation at Sderot) Individual IDF soldiers, as opposed to the state, are guilty of engaging in human rights violations. I am fully aware of this. But this is not because the state glorifies violence or the killing of civilians. Rather, I view the reason to be related to Israel's patheticness in defending its civilians.

I spoke to an IDF combat soldier who fought in Lebanon in 2006, and he said that if he wanted to kill a civilian, he could have ON HIS OWN, and there is little the state would have done about it. This certainly is appalling. (he did not commit such acts)

But why does this happen?

I believe that individual acts of barbarism on the part of IDF soldiers is directly related to a feeling of helplessness soldiers have when they are told to stand down, when they see rocket launch pads in Gaza. It is the inevitable result. Normally kind, decent people devolve into barbarians when they see the state has failed them.

This is not limited to Israel. Witness the mayhem in Gujarat, India, after the state failed to act after the Godhra train bombing. (More on Gujarat right here)

This is what Israel has in store for it if it continues down the road towards capitulation. It will not be pretty.

You are fearful of 'collective punishment' of Gaza residents. I say that this is of a secondary concern, as the actions in Gaza are a fraction of what needs to happen. (no, I do not mean nuke the whole place - I mean GO AFTER THOSE TRYING TO KILL JEWS) Until Israel does the right thing, there will be increasing numbers of IDF soldiers who go off the deep end and kill civilians, in some misguided notion of vigilante justice. That is my prediction.
 

Tsedek:

I guess I totally misread you and/or misunderstood what you were writing! I assumed you meant something you didn't, hence my reaction. I am glad we cleared it all up, and I am sorry at how I misread things!

NOW! Onto the other things you said...

I believe Olmert is suicidally and criminally incompetent, as is Peretz. If I were in control (which I am not, duh), I would jail them. I am serious.

I know what Israel has done in Gaza. It is feckless incompetence AT BEST, treasonous anti-humanity actions at worst.

Instead of bombing the rocket launch pad stations, Israel sends sonic booms which stop NOTHING, and achieve NOTHING, other than anger residents.

I guess my indignation at it, though, rests more with the poor (and I do mean poor, they are not rich, lest we forget!) Sderot residents, who as a result, are living in sheer terror due to the government incompetence and negligence.

But in the end, everyone is hurt. Pregnant Gazans miscarry, IDF soldiers will go nuts and engage in vigilante justice, Sderot residents are killed and terrorized on a daily basis...

And none of this stops suicide bombing and rockets being launched.

It's disgusting and outrageous. Everyone loses out, except the genocidal maniacs of Hamas/Fatah, etc. Ultimately, this emboldens THEM!

Tsedek, I ask you...

Why is this going on? It tears at my soul to see this nonsense!!! Why are Olmert and Peretz so feckless, inept, corrupt, and suicidally incompetent?

That is something I do not get. Do they simply not care for the well being of their citizens?
 

Tsedek:

Do not be jealous of my Jamaica trip. It was awful. I left early, and I saw horrible poverty. I will not be back.

I know, I am crazy - I had a horrible time in Jamaica.

I also had a wonderful time in Israel!!!

-----

Tsedek:

Posner and Becker are more than famous people. They happen to be two of the most brilliant legal minds on the planet. (I am serious) I know you like to come up with your own way, but I find that reading them is always at least interesting, and provides a very thoughtful perspective. They are not mere talking heads, rather, they are literally considered the two smartest legal minds in America. (way ahead of Alan Dershowitz, who I also consider brilliant)

Anyway.

I happen to believe that bombing in Lebanon was justified. Remember that Israel gave advance notice for civilians to leave. However, overall, the war was pointless, due to Halutz's feckless incompetence in preparing the IDF, as well as Olmert and Peretz's fecklessly incompetent war strategy.

All those dead soldiers...killed for nothing, due to sheer incompetence.

Tragic. Really, it's enough to numb the soul.
 

I hope what I am saying makes sense.

I believe the war with Hizballah was ethical and justified in THEORY, due to Hizby actions. However, the pathetic and inept way Israel fought the war was not inethical to the Lebanese, so much as it was inethical to ISRAELIS. The IDF (led by the corrupt and feckless Israeli government) let the Israeli people (and good Lebanese, who wanted and needed Hizballah disbanded) down.

And now Hizballah is back, and almost back to where they used to be.

All due to feckless, suicidal, disgusting incompetence. Israel needs regime change.

I am more convinced of this than ever before, after I engaged in a very long talk (for hours on end) with an IDF combat unit soldier who fought in Lebanon. What he discussed was horrifying to listen to.

And the UN 1701 compromise plan...don't get me started!
 

One last thing...

I find it quite astonishing that people claim "Zionists control the world," when if you look at REALITY, true Zionists do not even control Israel!

After all, I do not consider Olmert and Peretz, and their merry band of incompetents to be true zionists.

Ironic, no?
 

Tsedek:

A link can be placed this way:

(a href="http://www.link.com")words here(/a)

Replace () with <>

Cheers,

Red Tulips
 

Tsedek:

Your link probably did not work as you meant it to.

Anyway, I have heard that line a million times. Hamas was elected for their 'social programs.' And yet look at the world today! Sewage in the street in Gaza! Some 'social programs!'

Electing Nazis because they make the trains run on time is not a justification. Sorry, it is not.

As far as talk of Zionists controlling the world...

Sorry, it's not acceptable, even if it's just "their way of thinking." It's antisemitism.

FINALLY!

Jews have historically cared about the well being of the world - tikkun olam - while no one (or very few, I should say) cared for the Jews. This is just historical reality.

The same is abundantly true today.

Thus, my philosophy is that I care about Jews first, above anyone else. I do not think Jews are superior as people. (though the more I learn about Judaism, I think it to be a superior way to lead your life) Rather, I know no one else will care for Jews unless we do. That doesn't mean I don't also have other interests and concerns. But Jews and Israel is number one in my list of concerns. Of course, none of this means any means justify the ends of protecting Jews and Israel. Jews cease to be righteous and worth this concern if they become as bad as the butchering suiciders. Of course, Jews and Israel are very far from that degeneracy, and this is especially ironic given the worldwide 'condemnation' for Israel.

In any case, that is why holding a higher standard for yourself is so important. One of the most necessary forms of protection is moral protection against the degeneracy of hate. Sometimes it is hard to keep this in mind, when faced with the threats we have today.

This is why Golda Meir's quotation is so poignant:

"We can forgive them for killing our children. We will never forgive them for making us kill their children."

Quite a speaker, that Golda.
 

In war innocent people get hurt. That is no reason to change military tactics if those tactics will win the war quicker and with less lost of life of the people on your side.

You have to be more ruthless than the enemy during a war.
 

Tsedek:

I do not remain friends with virulent antisemites. Nothing will change them, certainly not my friendship. You are hopelessly naive if you think you will change someone who thinks Zionists control the world. The only way to combat antisemitism is to affect those who do not already hate.

As far as your talk about 'Palestinians,' sorry, you are flat out wrong. The Palestinians are not mentally retarded. They know what Hamas stands for, and they voted for them. The Nazis too came to power at a time when the Germans were suffering from a terrible economic depression.

What you wrote is a reason, not an excuse. Perhaps 'Palestinians' were simply disgusted with 'Fatah' and wanted change. But they voted in Hamas. They did not have to. It was a fair election.

And anoniem is right. We have to remember that this is war. It's easy to forget, but it's an unfortunate fact.
 

Here is a good video about people like tsedek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c
 

Tsedek:

Again, you give reasons, not excuses.

Nothing excuses voting in genociders. There is not a single thing that can justify it. By that reasoning, it was understandable why Nazis came to power because those poor Germans were humiliated by the world in the Treaty of Versailles, and post WWI world.

No, not understandable then. Not understandable now.

No justification.
 

Tsedek:

On this we are in agreement, and there are some things Israel can do that are practical, that it is not doing.

1) Only attack the Palestinians when there is an indication it will be effective. (i.e., no sonic booms!) That said - ATTACK WHEN THERE'S SUCH INDICATION! (i.e., those rocket launch pads not bombed)

2) Do not prop up another genocider under the pretense that this monster is somehow 'moderate.' (by that I mean, Abu Mazen/Mahmood Abbas)

3) Do more to integrate Arab Israelis into society, to the extent possible.

4) Totally revise the educational system. I think the educational system should be 100% secular, including for Arab Israelis. Then let Jews learn about Judaism in Jewish schools. I spoke to Israelis who were totally turned off to Judaism, perhaps in part because they learn about the Torah in regular school. (Okay, that does not affect Palestinians, but I still think it's necessary) I must stress that Arab Israelis cannot be taught that May 14 is "Al-Nakba." This creates a situation where there are two nations within one - and where there is Arab Israeli support for Palestinian terror!

5) Ban all non-zionist parties from the Knesset. If Kach is to be banned, so should be Balad. This weakens resolve.

6) As far as Palestinians go...there won't be that support for suicide bombing if they do not see it as effective. Now let's look at this new society...

Balad is banned, people take more pride in their Judaism (given they are not shoved Judaism down their throats in a secular setting), no genociders are propped up, the Palestinians know they will be attacked if they attack, and Arab Israelis back Israel...

Suddenly, the support for suicide bombing ends, as they see it will not demoralize.

Why do they hate? They hate because they are taught so in schools, the media, and mosques. The mosque part is key, and helps explain the lack of Christian suicide bombers. They do not hate because they are the "poor, suffering, Palestinians," except to the extent that their OWN LEADERS are hurting them. (and also because of Israeli reaction to terror - such as building a defensive fence, checkpoints, etc) But this hate does exist because it is seen as effective.

Show them it will not be effective, and I think this MIGHT change their world perspective.

Similarly, if the Neville Chamberlain policy of appeasement was not in place pre-WWII, then support for Nazis would have dropped quite considerably, I assure you.

Ask yourself why there are relatively few German Nazis today?

Answer: Nazism was defeated.

In parallel, the Palestinian terrorism either needs to be totally defeated in an all out war, or all out war may be prevented by stopping this policy of appeasement and patheticness in the face of terror. Show the Palestinians they will NOT WIN - convince them of this - and the mass support for terror will drop.

Just as the mass support for Nazism dropped amongst Germans.
 

Tsedek:

And your proof of this supposed moderation is...where?

Representatives of Abbas recently, just yesterday, said he will arm Hamas. source The al aqsa brigades, the armed wing of Fatah, regularly have slaughtered Jewish civilians in Israel. he was the right hand man of Arafat.

Again I ask you...your proof of Abbas's moderation is...where?
 

There is not. There only is the recognition of caring. Caring for people, one's 'own' or those of others doesn't matter, in itself is the prime ingredient for having a common recognizable emotion. Again: it the non caring one can't speak with, those who send off their own flesh and blood to 'heaven' (ya'ani) one must distrust.

In case you didn't get it: the only enemy Israel has are the ones that glorify death above life.

Abu Mazen cried, and not voluntarily and against his will and way before he became anything 'political' -

tears melt away hatred -

You can stand up and consider everyone with the same measure as an enemy of israel and dangerous to its existence. I don't. You gotta realize that enemies of Israel EXIST, but there are different kind of enemies. Those human and those monsters (tears against preaching love for death).
 

Tsedek:

Are you joking?

Abu Mazen cried, so the fact that he was Arafat's (a Nazi) deputy is irrelevant? The fact that he is in charg eof Fatah, which has a terror wing (al aqsa) is irrelevant?

Reality speaks differently.
 

Think about Sharon and Begin and how they are perceived on the 'other side'. We can go on endless discussions - perceptions cannot be changed and Abu Mazen has showed, by his tears for me, that there is a human being we can talk to - instead of a walking propaganda machine, Red Tulips.
 

Are you now saying that Sharon and Begin = Arafat?

I will use an analogy.

Suppose Hitler cried. Would that change anything?

Actions speak louder than 'tears.'