zondag, januari 21, 2007


Who questions Israel's legitimacy?

Let's not turn to anti-Arab racism
Rabbi David Forman Nov. 14th, 2005

History has proven over and over again that when a nation is faced with both an economic crisis and a security threat, the foundations of democracy can be readily sacrificed. But, it is under extreme circumstances that a nation is ultimately tested. For Jews, this is a serious matter. To bolster the country economically and militarily by trampling the basic rights of others is to deny the very values on which we Jews were born as a people.


In light of our present behavior, we should ask ourselves: Did we return to our ancestral homeland to become a nation like all other nations? If we teach our people the tactics of our historical enemies, will we not begin to look and act, at least in the eyes of others, as having assumed the posture of our most despised persecutors?

Whose image do we want reflected in the mirror – a Prophet or a Pharaoh? Israel and the Jewish people are at a crossroads. What hangs in the balance is not the matter of the territories, nor even the issue of war and peace. What hangs in the balance is the very face of Jewish civilization.


Ultimately, by introducing racist laws, it is not others, but we who are challenging our own legitimacy as a people and a nation.


Rabbis For Human Rights...


The Joint Israeli-Palestinian Public Opinion Poll found that among Arab citizens of Israel, an astounding 73 percent agreed with the statement that they would rather be citizens of Israel than of any other country in the world. A huge proportion, almost 88.5 percent of Israeli Jews, said yes, Israel is the one country whose citizenship they preferred (Peace Index at Tel Aviv University)

Arabs, Jews proud to be Israelis
Posted on Sat, Jan. 20, 2007


So,therefore good news! Be PROUD of being Israel !!!
Let’s not turn to anti-Arab racism
Zionism = racism. This means that Zionism in all its forms, whether its so-called 'tolerant' version or the extremist one, is anti-Arab and anti-Muslim.

Occupation of 1948 = occupation of 1956 = = occupation of 1967 = occupation of 1982 = racist expansionism = terrorism.
Being pro-Israel does not have to imply being anti-Arab, and vice versa. Unfortunately for the Palestinians over the years their leaders and supposed 'brothers' and 'friends' were far more interested in destroying Israel than in creating Palestine. They were adn are certainly anti-Israel, but not at all pro-Palestinian.

Hence the sad spectacle of wars waged by the aforementioned 'brothers' on behalf of a brethren they themselves keep in what amounts to multi-generational concentration camps.
Sometimes you have to sacrifice some of your rights temporary so that you can be able to protect all of your rights in the Future.

Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus FDR locked up Japanese Americans.

But both are remembered for being strong leaders and defenders of freedom. Irony, yeah sure but sometimes you have to violate what you are protecting in order to ensure that you can protect it in the future.
G. that's an interesting result indeed! thank you for directing my attention to it. And, I AM proud to live in Israel. My critique at it does not take away the fact that I always believed and still believe that other countries would have acted and still would act waaaaaay worse given the same circumstances Israel finds herself in - however... the ethical code of behaviour of this country, my country, must be laid much higher in my opinion, with the emphasis on individual human beings.

Zionism is not racism, AlGhaliboon. This was recalled in the 1990's even by the treacherous UN. You should really read about the principles of Zionism from an objective source. As I wrote before: things got way outta hand following the events each 'side' found themselves drawn into by extremists. But the principle stands that the 'wish for a jewish home' which is the meaning of zionism is not racism. Got nothing to do with 'races' as well.

|3run0 - what you write is so true... Exactly, short and to the point. And, it's sad to see this go on right under our eyes...

Aaahhh... legal terms, Anonymous ;) I work at a lawyer's office and still the complexity of how completely legally certain principles can be used differently still dizzies me *blush*. I understand what you write though. The question asked by anti-Israel supporters is though are that 'your' principles for freedom or 'ours'...
However with the poll of g. above - it looks that this still works better than external interference for different values...
The idea of battling social injustices, marginalization and racism should not be questioned at all. They are "faits accomplies" of Israel's religious heritage and secular humanism. The question is what to do with "the other" that will not accept you even if you extend your hand to them and even if you recognized and accept some historical wrong doings perpetrated against "the other".

On a personal level it could work, after one changes his/her attitude and accepts reason over illusion and recognizes the illogical twists (or abherations)of history. But not a societal level, it is another matter. Policies that may sound or look as unfair to "the other" are implemented as a reaction to defend the rights and they are the same rights that "the other" wants but will deny to "the other others" which is "us".

It is easy to discuss our moral convictions but sometimes we have to accept that we too are humans and we do have our weaknesses and monstrous tendencies. It is time for Israelis to accept that. Guilt may be personal, but it is hard to make it a collective one.

While we wait for "the other" to accept us, we can go on with our moral convictions and discussions, it will not change a thing. "The other" wants us as dhimmis and not as equal. And that's a dilemma.
i am a strong supporter of human rights..

but i must add that symmetry and fairness are not always one..

this is murky pond i avoid - but it often astounds me how racism is like a corner of an alter that people cling to to counter notions they oppose on the grounds of their collective impact - whereas poverty can thrive and be cultivated by clear government policy hurting people that have no choice in the matter and that will go untouched..

the process of how we choose our "other" is so fascinating..

inevitably people seek to survive.. the question becomes one of where they draw the line.. who fits within the collective will - whether by choice or otherwise and how do interests align?

not simple..
Let me be a little more concise here... I mean approach towards individuals - human beings - like the following which caught my breath again this morning and I completely don't understand the insensitivity.

Judge refuse to release prisoner for brother's funeral

I'm sure something could be thought of for letting someone perform this basic humane duty? Escort? Collaterol? Something? For crying out loud: he's got only a 4 month prison sentence - It is not as if he were a life-time prisoner??

And this:
Arab fathers don't mourn?

soldiers shot with cold blood and without a permit a 14-year-old girl, and later they prevented her father, who is detained in Israel on suspicion of illegally entering the country and stealing cars, to mourn her death with his relatives at her funeral.

You see what I mean, g. and others? This is pure heartlessness... sorry, this concerns human beings - not politics, not 'sides' - but basic feelings of being human...

That's what I meant with my posting. Overall taken it may look just fine and even still way better than other countries surrounding us without having to suffer the same security problems, but when you creep down, down into each and every case of individual human beings the heart and humanity is, unfortunately, lacking....

And I am one of those persons who is convinced that a cause without a heart (for everybody) is predestined to lose... all.
i agree..

its revolting..

the only problem is - we can grieve instances and we can react instinctively to situations.. but then you look at it from a larger context and you understand the mutual victimisation..

i dont think that the desire for a jewish state is in itself the problem..

i dont think that recognising a demographic issue is intself a problem either..

it is not unique to us - nor is it one-sided..

it is often the case that demographic control becomes a strategy..

its not about xenophobia either.. but rather about balancing out values..

i think this is important for sustainable peace..

also.. i dont think that arabs saying they prefer to be israeli necessarily means that they are proud to be israeli.. or want to be israeli..

i dont know that it is correct to romanticise a survey..

i have seen sufficient interviews of arabs calling themselves everything but israeli arabs - with the most fashionable term being "arabs of 48"..

i genuinely hope it sorts itself out.. i think good intentions are useful and required.. but i certainly dont think that this is a simple issue..

Yes. There is no argument here. I have said that at the individual level things could work out, if people change. Rules are made to be bend and are not written in stones. In this case if soldiers show a little compassion and receive order to review each case. And I agree with you on the cases you mentioned, there needs to be some changes at the individual level.

My reservation is in the larger context of the issue. All these injustices and inhuman treatments can be resolved if collectively we agree to live together. But who is not accepting this formula? Hey.
|3run0 ,

With regards to your statement below:

"Unfortunately for the Palestinians over the years their leaders and supposed 'brothers' and 'friends' were far more interested in destroying Israel than in creating Palestine."

I agree with the "spirit" of what you are saying about the Arabs' hypocrytical attitude towards the Palestinians. But I would disagree with you over the Arabs wanting to destroy Israel. The Arab regimes (and Iran) need Israel to exist, it allows them to deflect attention from their own shortcomings. Every Arab state today is a failed state, and this includes the rich gulf statelets, do not let their wealth fool you. If the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ever resolved, they will have one less reason for the martial law that has been perpetually applied in their countries.


As for your statement:

"i dont know that it is correct to romanticise a survey.."

I'm not surprised that Israeli Arabs voted the way they did. What other alternatives do they have? To be identify with the chaotic PA, or regressive Saudi Arabia? Lack of alternatives does not necessarily mean that they are truly "proud".

Besides, "Israel" might mean different things to different people. For an Arab villager, it might refer to the same land that his clan has been tilling for generations. This is the land he identifies with regardless of its modern conventional name.
But who is not accepting this formula? Hey.

But I ask: Is that so?

Do we hear enough of 'the' Palestinian individuals or are their voices packed together and the loudest, most extremist, transmitted to 'us'? Can 'the' Palestinian individual speak freely? And, even if they could - are they, after being thrown (not only blaming Israel here, even foremost the Palestinian leaders and "arab brothers" elsewhere) into mayhem and hellfire living conditions, being stripped of their human dignity by 18 and 20 year old Israeli children in their day to day life, in the right frame of mind to make sober decisions considering that the wise advise for people to "calm down" when they are in stress they did not even had a chance to apply?

Lirun: i dont think that the desire for a jewish state is in itself the problem..

You are right:

There have been polls from the Palestinian Center For Public Opinion that show a fierce 72% of the Palestinians accept Israel to be a jewish state WHEN their demands (to enjoy their own freedom, in short) are met.

So, with that fact in mind, I don't think that Israeli Arabs would reject it either...

Nizo: I think they also included 'western' countries in that poll. Maybe not, but I remember a poll of a few years ago with results to the same effect that did. So, it's not restricted to having 2 choices only: either Israel or corrupt dictatorship countries.

Except for the cases that go wrong and end-up in the news, I honestly -after thinking of it- am not that surprised (anymore) either: there is not much difference between mentality - actually there is more that unites than separates. Where else in the world has the Sharia family court legal status (besides from arab countries) - just like the religious jewish have their 'own' rabinnical court? In the end, when you think of it, doesn't that - somehow - represent the ultimate proof of complete freedom on personal level effecting the norms and moral one is used to?

(It was about time I wrote something 'positive' about Israel after all these complaints - sometimes one forget that complaining comes forth from a deep hurt seeing something good basically, being misused.)
"Zionism = racism. This means that Zionism in all its forms, whether its so-called 'tolerant' version or the extremist one, is anti-Arab and anti-Muslim."

I'm not sure I follow your logic. You are saing that Zionism is racism, hence Zionism in all its forms is racism?

Then you refer to a "tolerant" and "extremist" version, as if every Zionist would think of two different Zionisms?

Does that make sense at all? I think you are creating a tautology. Zionism is racist hence all forms of Zionism are racist hence Zionism as a whole is racist.

"Occupation of 1948 = occupation of 1956 = = occupation of 1967 = occupation of 1982 = racist expansionism = terrorism."

Tell your Arab brethren to stop trying to kill all the Jews and you won't suffer the terror of defeat any more. Do you really expect the Jews to die rather than fight back? And who cares how often Arab armies tried to destroy Israel?
Zionism is not racism, AlGhaliboon. This was recalled in the 1990's even by the treacherous UN.
Who cares about what the UN says???? Frankly?!?!? (I guess you will always refer to it when it supports you, like in your occupation of Sheb'aa farms, but say they are treacherous when it doesn't suit you). You think we care about the UN? What was UN doing while our loved ones were being killed??! Why did we attack the ESCWA building when your terrorist air force killed dozens of children in Qana, while they were sleeping?! You think UNIFIL will continue to exist when it starts meddling in our affairs? We will chase them out of our lands like we chased your terrorist cowards out. You are right, the UN IS treacherous. It exists for the interests of USA and other western countries, including "israel".

their leaders and supposed 'brothers' and 'friends' were far more interested in destroying Israel than in creating Palestine.
They are not their "leaders" nor their "brothers" nor their "friends"!!! Nor are they OUR brothers/friends for that matter!! The Arab "leaders" have sold their souls to USA and "israel", and immorality and "secularism". The secular Fateh has sold its soul to "israel". What did they achieve? And what did HAMAS achieve in comparison? Hamas kicked "israel" and their 8000 terrorist thugs who used to live in Gaza and terrorize 1.5 million Palestinians out of Gaza. What did Fateh do? All they are good for is doing "israel's" filthy job. Proxy hitmen, that's what they are.

Tell your Arab brethren to stop trying to kill all the Jews and you won't suffer the terror of defeat any more.
Oh please, not the victimization rhetoric again. The so-called "Jews" have been terrorizing the whole region since the early 20th century. And now that we have managed to rise up and make you PAY with blood, rather than "negotiate" for what BELONGS to us, you start crying and whining and arguing that we are trying to "throw you into the sea". Your lies are no longer working as they used to; you know the story of the boy who cried wolf? That will be your fate. You threw us out not in words, but in ACTIONS. You committed ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians, and you also tried the same with US, but you FAILED, and that is why you hate us. You hate our COURAGE, you hate our DEDICATION, you hate our FAITH, you hate our belief in MARTYRDOM. And because you lack all these, you cannot fight like MEN, but choose to kill babies and women and the elderly, and you choose to demonize MUSLIMS and all the talk about "Jihad" (without even knowing what it MEANS and what it is all about) and all Muslims supporting Bin Laden. That's your cheap culture of selling knowledge without understanding what you are talking about.

"Fight back". But don't whine about your so-called "kidnapped" soldiers. You call them "kidnapped" as if they are civilians. We accept that our SOLDIERS and FIGHTERS will be martyred. But you don't even accept that your soldiers will be CAPTURED, and will die on the battlefield. You have been used too much to kicking us around and terrorizing the helpless, that you cannot possibly accept DEFEAT when it hits you.
AlGhaliboon LOL - that's why I used the word "even". C'mon hey, as if the UN is not referred to everytime and everywhere - against Israel ;) all those resolutions israel is perpetrating rings a bell? It comes up in every discussion I've seen so far. So, I refer back, as a joke. First they proclaimed zionism racism and then they re-iterated their words... typically UN, their words don't mean a thing...

Just know that the UN has a closing block existing out of arabic and arabic supporting countries and even a proposal of Israel is hard to enter a vote because of the regional representation this block is having.

I'm sorry, but I'll never be able to understand this 'brother' thing if 'you' discard half of the people that are supposed to be 'brothers' on any incident that is against YOUR views/ideology/policy. Is it not allowed for brothers to have different opinions? Whah, look what's going on in Gaza: a civil war. (In Hebrew it's called a brother-war). Why? Compromising is 'weak'? "not brotherly'? Again: why? How dare you call people that support Fateh Israel's puppets anyway? Are people that want to decide on THEIR OWN fate (and not yours who doesn't live there) not worthy enough to do so?

I was not aware that the Hamas threw Israel out of Gaza?? It seemed a whole of a lot more quite when the settlements were there and they were living quite secured and look at Gaza now.........

Zionism is no racism. It is not so because every region has it's own culture and is fighting to keep it - the arabic countries with muslim majorities and cultures, the western countries improvising now with the large number of muslim immigrants to keep their 'western values' and culture (Europe). So, the jews want the same, and if they're the only ones excluded than that's called discrimination. The country is small enough - fitting the population size. And, there is a one/fifth non-jewish population and growing so it's not as if it's a 'nazi' state or something - only jewish traditions to be the culture with the respect and freedom for other cultures to exist within.

Anonymous, that's my 'account' for the support of Israel. This small country opposite major big countries each having their own characteristics - it's not fair if the jews are not allowed to have such.
"Oh please, not the victimization rhetoric again."

Well, if you get the Arabs to stop calling for Israel's destruction and the murder of Jews, you won't hear it any more.

Until then the Jews will complain and fight back.
"Oh please, not the victimization rhetoric again."

Well, if you get the Arabs to stop calling for Israel's destruction and the murder of Jews, you won't hear it any more.

Until then the Jews will complain and fight back.
ill complain and fight back.
After reading all the entries, it seems that this tread discussing the so called mistreatment of Palestinians by the Israeli forces is going nowhere and has become naive, simplistic and of low grade intellectual power.

It has become a sort of discursive exercise for the sake of saying nothing, specially your apologetic statements of behalf of the rights of the Palestinians and humanity as whole while at the same time arguing miserably with no zeal and conviction that Israel is not a racism state. What a sorry arguments like... [(the country is small enough, ...fitting population.. the Arabic countries) should be Arab countries]...

What sort of naive claims are these to dispel the lie that zionism is racism. One should not try to answer that idea, because it is absurd. Anyone with a small protion of gray matter would laugh at it. However, since you have taken it upon yourself to teach a lesson to the one who believe it, I must say that you are deluding yourself with this senseless infantile discussion of the love of humankind and twisted hippy ideology. The power of your arguments is very low indeed.

Anyway, while you reflect of the lasted terrorist killing of 3 Jewish civilians peacefuly trying to buy bread or enjoying some pastries, and who denied that instantly, I am sure you can certainly come up with a nice "flowery" and "flaky" 9th grade explanation about humanity. But as for me I am out of the tread for good.
sammish, that's my believe. sorry to hear you find it 'weak' 'sorry arguments'.
never forget that the 'other side' has a story to tell as well and that that 'other side' is a helluva lot bigger than you imagine it to be - even include jews (in the diaspora).
zionism is looked upon as 'racist' - by some/many and if you can explain better why it is NOT, than please be my guest. but by laughing at those claims and telling those people are ridiculous by ignoring them - I find you only dig yourself deeper in your own hole whilest opponents to your believes stay stuck in their holes, because those claims don't just disappear as snow in the sun.

*hippy* ??? ROFLMAO
nizo - i agree..
Zionism = racism.

Very untrue. Zionism is a movement, a legitimate one which gave Jews their right (and yes, they do have that right) to their own land because they wouldn't be safe otherwise considering their worldwide mistreatment throughout history. Modern Zionism (i.e, Israeli nationalism) you might say, might have certain racist qualities against Arabs and Muslims, but why should that astound you? We as Muslims, generally, are not any less racist than they are against us. It's no one's fault in particular, we are both fueling our hatred and are spending much time justifying it.

I support Zionism, despite me being pro-Palestine and an Arab-Muslim. I think, considering the history of Jews in our region, they have their right to their land and the Koran has specifically referred to the holy land as the Kingdom of Israel, the land of Jews.

I don't support the human rights violations happening in the name of Zionism, but then again that doesn't give Israelis and Jews any less right to their own secure homeland.
Thank you for your comment, Esra'a. Sorry I hadn't seen it before.
We agree.
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