maandag, juli 03, 2006
Afraid
A blogster I tremendously admire although she's having totally different views as mine is Ihath
http://www.ihath.com/index.html
that I don't read anymore at all since the subjects she is writing about now are not that much interesting me anymore, but if you roam around her side-bar -especially under the subject "losing it" - can expect the most sensitive straight from the heart written stories you've ever read (also, if you don't share the same opinions with her, as I don't). I admire her for her talent of puting feelings into words, direct feelings - real emotions...
Two odd years ago orso she came to this blog - that I never mentioned to anyone (until a few weeks ago) - and wrote in the comments section under a beginners posting of mine, in which I terribly doubted if blogging was "my thing" : "just write what you feel".
Now, and only now, I know what she meant. That came about when I was reading and posting in the comments section of the Sandmonkey, here:
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/07/02/a-quick-gaza-round-up/#comments
After all that's been written and re-written over and over again over the conflict I'm part of -willingly or unwillingly by just living here, suddenly I felt a question creeping up in my head "why do we react as we do and for what purpose, if everybody that is reacting anyway only wants peace?" (or at least they say so).
Why do we insist on keeping to blame "the other"? Why do we speak lightly about the atrocities "we" (well, "our side") are perpetrating and keep on writing about the atrocities of the "other side" to justify "our own"? And then my heart answered me:
Fear.
So, I'll write about my fear, of what I'm afraid of. I hope that passers-by on this blog will take one moment and write about their fears, of what they are afraid of - just straight from the heart...
The 1967 borders issue and retreat from those areas by Israel: I'm afraid that the terror organizations will keep on having the upperhand in the general approach and Palestinian consensus towards Israel and Israeli's if and when they will - say become part of an independent state under the borders of 1967. I'm afraid they will launch more and more attacks on Israel (certainly if Israel would not be in control of land, air and sea entries) and will get stronger. The thing that bothers me also with this is that trading land for more violence this way is that Israeli's that genuinely love certain parts in the WB will be robbed of the object of their love for more hurt, more bloodshed.
The right of return: I just don't think it's fair to flood a country with the grandchildren of people that were forced to leave this country during a war in which every party know they can either win or lose. Having lost - you should carry the consequences. This is not because I'm a person without a heart or so, but because Israeli's also are people with feelings and they live here now for more than 3 generations and this is their motherland (fatherland?). Why to discard feelings of today for feelings of 3 generations ago? Anyway, this I mention because I'm afraid that jews won't have the power to defend themselves anymore if such a thing would become reality (return of fugitives). And, you can dug it or face it: jews WERE attacked for what they were over the centuries without being able to defend themselves. No organized lot.
If I see which shameless lies are still being told about jews (blood, matzes, protocols, canibalism, stealing and selling organs - you name it) I do think I've got a good point here.
But, not only that. I'm afraid the society structure would change dramatically if it would happen. Although Israel is most certainly not the most human country in the world with the minimum percent of racism or discrimination, I still think it's society is far, far better than many other societies and given that they've been under attack for all of its existence, I think if there would be peace, it would be by far a much better country to live in than certain countries that call themselves "progressive". I love the east/west mixture we've got here, the social conditions are based on fair values and could be exploited, if properly steered, towards a just society for everyone. I'd just hate to lose it to a religious or stronger influenced religious society. (I mean: look at it, in Gaza things intern are not that swell either, right?)
Of this I am afraid. I hope someone will add their fears that are reason for leaning more to one side of the pal/isr. conflict than the other, here. Cozzz, I really would like to know. That way I might relevate - and change my views, or become even more stuck with them ^_^
Tse.
http://www.ihath.com/index.html
that I don't read anymore at all since the subjects she is writing about now are not that much interesting me anymore, but if you roam around her side-bar -especially under the subject "losing it" - can expect the most sensitive straight from the heart written stories you've ever read (also, if you don't share the same opinions with her, as I don't). I admire her for her talent of puting feelings into words, direct feelings - real emotions...
Two odd years ago orso she came to this blog - that I never mentioned to anyone (until a few weeks ago) - and wrote in the comments section under a beginners posting of mine, in which I terribly doubted if blogging was "my thing" : "just write what you feel".
Now, and only now, I know what she meant. That came about when I was reading and posting in the comments section of the Sandmonkey, here:
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/07/02/a-quick-gaza-round-up/#comments
After all that's been written and re-written over and over again over the conflict I'm part of -willingly or unwillingly by just living here, suddenly I felt a question creeping up in my head "why do we react as we do and for what purpose, if everybody that is reacting anyway only wants peace?" (or at least they say so).
Why do we insist on keeping to blame "the other"? Why do we speak lightly about the atrocities "we" (well, "our side") are perpetrating and keep on writing about the atrocities of the "other side" to justify "our own"? And then my heart answered me:
Fear.
So, I'll write about my fear, of what I'm afraid of. I hope that passers-by on this blog will take one moment and write about their fears, of what they are afraid of - just straight from the heart...
The 1967 borders issue and retreat from those areas by Israel: I'm afraid that the terror organizations will keep on having the upperhand in the general approach and Palestinian consensus towards Israel and Israeli's if and when they will - say become part of an independent state under the borders of 1967. I'm afraid they will launch more and more attacks on Israel (certainly if Israel would not be in control of land, air and sea entries) and will get stronger. The thing that bothers me also with this is that trading land for more violence this way is that Israeli's that genuinely love certain parts in the WB will be robbed of the object of their love for more hurt, more bloodshed.
The right of return: I just don't think it's fair to flood a country with the grandchildren of people that were forced to leave this country during a war in which every party know they can either win or lose. Having lost - you should carry the consequences. This is not because I'm a person without a heart or so, but because Israeli's also are people with feelings and they live here now for more than 3 generations and this is their motherland (fatherland?). Why to discard feelings of today for feelings of 3 generations ago? Anyway, this I mention because I'm afraid that jews won't have the power to defend themselves anymore if such a thing would become reality (return of fugitives). And, you can dug it or face it: jews WERE attacked for what they were over the centuries without being able to defend themselves. No organized lot.
If I see which shameless lies are still being told about jews (blood, matzes, protocols, canibalism, stealing and selling organs - you name it) I do think I've got a good point here.
But, not only that. I'm afraid the society structure would change dramatically if it would happen. Although Israel is most certainly not the most human country in the world with the minimum percent of racism or discrimination, I still think it's society is far, far better than many other societies and given that they've been under attack for all of its existence, I think if there would be peace, it would be by far a much better country to live in than certain countries that call themselves "progressive". I love the east/west mixture we've got here, the social conditions are based on fair values and could be exploited, if properly steered, towards a just society for everyone. I'd just hate to lose it to a religious or stronger influenced religious society. (I mean: look at it, in Gaza things intern are not that swell either, right?)
Of this I am afraid. I hope someone will add their fears that are reason for leaning more to one side of the pal/isr. conflict than the other, here. Cozzz, I really would like to know. That way I might relevate - and change my views, or become even more stuck with them ^_^
Tse.
Comments:
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Hello Tsedek,
good morning...
It was very useful for me to read this post.
I believe all what you said, with additions from others or with differences here and there, is JUSTIFIED.
It might not be wise to deny the refugees outside the westbank from coming back ( since logic, justice and international law all confirm their RIGHTS to return no matter how long it was and how many generations passed ).Yet allowing them to come in( to the west bank and gaza I eman ) as residents wouldnt be practical for anyone ( for Israel as well as for Palestinians ).
It is very sad that the govts of Israel has DENIED the rights of Palestinians all over the time ( 1948 untill now ).Yet negotiantions can surely solve it out (compensations maybe, open visitations, allowing SOME of them to come back, ...many solutions are possible...)
Tsedek I believe that solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not that complicated issue after all.
Dont you think so?
good morning...
It was very useful for me to read this post.
I believe all what you said, with additions from others or with differences here and there, is JUSTIFIED.
It might not be wise to deny the refugees outside the westbank from coming back ( since logic, justice and international law all confirm their RIGHTS to return no matter how long it was and how many generations passed ).Yet allowing them to come in( to the west bank and gaza I eman ) as residents wouldnt be practical for anyone ( for Israel as well as for Palestinians ).
It is very sad that the govts of Israel has DENIED the rights of Palestinians all over the time ( 1948 untill now ).Yet negotiantions can surely solve it out (compensations maybe, open visitations, allowing SOME of them to come back, ...many solutions are possible...)
Tsedek I believe that solving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not that complicated issue after all.
Dont you think so?
hello Tsedek
/If I see which shameless lies are still being told about jews (blood, matzes, protocols, canibalism, stealing and selling organs - you name it) I do think I've got a good point here/
Well, I do believe that there are quite many lies being told about Israel. this is part of the 'strugle' UNFORTUNATELY.
tsedek I think that if we stick to the only unarguable fact about the whole struggle , which is OCCUPATION, and If the israelis are willingly ready to admit this fact infront of the world, and at least SHOW some signs of readiness to do SOMETHINg about it, then things would be better.
We, on the other hand, should be able to face ourselves with the fact that we have not only to accept the state of Israel's right to exist ( beyong 67 borders, or wtever agreed upon solutions later ) but also to respect their rights to live in peace and practice their religious and nonreligious activities FREELY.
We have so many places and history that is making it impossible to totally separate the 2 nations or the 2 states or the 2 people 9 wt ever)
The way for us to admit yur rights is much more longer than it for you. The consequences of occupation are and cannot be easily erased.
But things can always be better.The war in europe ended with few tens of millions killed and tens of years later this is hardly mentioned.
good day
note- i will try to talk about our fears if you would be interested.
/If I see which shameless lies are still being told about jews (blood, matzes, protocols, canibalism, stealing and selling organs - you name it) I do think I've got a good point here/
Well, I do believe that there are quite many lies being told about Israel. this is part of the 'strugle' UNFORTUNATELY.
tsedek I think that if we stick to the only unarguable fact about the whole struggle , which is OCCUPATION, and If the israelis are willingly ready to admit this fact infront of the world, and at least SHOW some signs of readiness to do SOMETHINg about it, then things would be better.
We, on the other hand, should be able to face ourselves with the fact that we have not only to accept the state of Israel's right to exist ( beyong 67 borders, or wtever agreed upon solutions later ) but also to respect their rights to live in peace and practice their religious and nonreligious activities FREELY.
We have so many places and history that is making it impossible to totally separate the 2 nations or the 2 states or the 2 people 9 wt ever)
The way for us to admit yur rights is much more longer than it for you. The consequences of occupation are and cannot be easily erased.
But things can always be better.The war in europe ended with few tens of millions killed and tens of years later this is hardly mentioned.
good day
note- i will try to talk about our fears if you would be interested.
Osaid, I was not referring to laws (int'l or otherwise) but to feelings... I still can't get it through my head (and heart, since my feelings originate from there) that after 3 generations the generation that has actually never lived in a place is longing to live there based on their grandparents' stories. Abu Issa tried to explain it to me once, but I guess one can never explain feelings....
My husband is from Iraq. Were quite wealthy there. Had to leave everything when they were driven to the airport when they were forced to leave Baghdad. Yet! never have I heard the family wish to go back there. They accepted they arrived here, lost their properties and had to start anew (listening to Umm Kalthoum all day long, hahahaa). Now, after 3 generations Iraq for them is in no way their "motherland" anymore.
You see what I mean? Why would it be different for other people? Are not all people the same? Don't we ALL have to adjust to reality or go down history's drain by repeating it over & over again?
I know that the Israeli gov't laid their hands on the former properties of the Iraqi jews in Iraq and is keeping it aside for possible future compensation money to pay to Palestinians. It was a program on tv once. The journalist was not even allowed to know where they (gov't) kept the property-docs. So, if it would ever come to it Iraqi jews would have paid Palestinian compensation monies LOL :) Iraqi jews never even had a say in it ...
(btw: those docs were handed over to Israel by the Americans after they invaded Iraq).
See why I fail to understand the logic in the "right of return"? Fail to see how one can feel that way with having similar examples right in front of my eyes showing completely different feelings?
NOW: if it would be made possible for Iraqi jews to have the 'right of return' - would the reality of the present not make that completely impossible to enact? Why then is it so difficult for Palestinian fugitives whose grandparents fled Israel to accept reality?
I don't write this out of spite or something like that. It's because I truely cannot understand it....
http://www.afsi.org/arablies.htm
I beg you to go through this propaganda site telling history from a "zionist" point of view. Please try to look through the typical propaganda language because I would sincerely like to know which FACTS they got wrong... I trust your puting things straight - just chose one point that they got it wrong...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18072
And then from the above "zionist" site the following:
"After their victory, Israel passed a law that allowed Arab refugees to re-settle in Israel provided they would sign a form in which they renounced violence, swore allegiance to the state of Israel, and became peaceful productive citizens. During the decades of this law’s tenure, more than 150,000 Arab refugees have taken advantage of it to resume productive lives in Israel."
Isn't this contradictionary to what you claim that Israel has denied the rights of the Palestinians?
====================
Pffffffffffffffff *wiping off-the perspiration from forehead* Hahahaa... It is for these reasons that I don't like to enter "history" into todays search for a just solution. Opposite sites will claim "Palestinians do not exist" - against - "the jews have stolen our land". It doesn't bring us anywhere, since NOW the Palestinians do exist (or am I reacting here to a alien, hahahaha) and Israel is a fact.
Peace & merdeka brada ;)
Tse.
My husband is from Iraq. Were quite wealthy there. Had to leave everything when they were driven to the airport when they were forced to leave Baghdad. Yet! never have I heard the family wish to go back there. They accepted they arrived here, lost their properties and had to start anew (listening to Umm Kalthoum all day long, hahahaa). Now, after 3 generations Iraq for them is in no way their "motherland" anymore.
You see what I mean? Why would it be different for other people? Are not all people the same? Don't we ALL have to adjust to reality or go down history's drain by repeating it over & over again?
I know that the Israeli gov't laid their hands on the former properties of the Iraqi jews in Iraq and is keeping it aside for possible future compensation money to pay to Palestinians. It was a program on tv once. The journalist was not even allowed to know where they (gov't) kept the property-docs. So, if it would ever come to it Iraqi jews would have paid Palestinian compensation monies LOL :) Iraqi jews never even had a say in it ...
(btw: those docs were handed over to Israel by the Americans after they invaded Iraq).
See why I fail to understand the logic in the "right of return"? Fail to see how one can feel that way with having similar examples right in front of my eyes showing completely different feelings?
NOW: if it would be made possible for Iraqi jews to have the 'right of return' - would the reality of the present not make that completely impossible to enact? Why then is it so difficult for Palestinian fugitives whose grandparents fled Israel to accept reality?
I don't write this out of spite or something like that. It's because I truely cannot understand it....
http://www.afsi.org/arablies.htm
I beg you to go through this propaganda site telling history from a "zionist" point of view. Please try to look through the typical propaganda language because I would sincerely like to know which FACTS they got wrong... I trust your puting things straight - just chose one point that they got it wrong...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18072
And then from the above "zionist" site the following:
"After their victory, Israel passed a law that allowed Arab refugees to re-settle in Israel provided they would sign a form in which they renounced violence, swore allegiance to the state of Israel, and became peaceful productive citizens. During the decades of this law’s tenure, more than 150,000 Arab refugees have taken advantage of it to resume productive lives in Israel."
Isn't this contradictionary to what you claim that Israel has denied the rights of the Palestinians?
====================
Pffffffffffffffff *wiping off-the perspiration from forehead* Hahahaa... It is for these reasons that I don't like to enter "history" into todays search for a just solution. Opposite sites will claim "Palestinians do not exist" - against - "the jews have stolen our land". It doesn't bring us anywhere, since NOW the Palestinians do exist (or am I reacting here to a alien, hahahaha) and Israel is a fact.
Peace & merdeka brada ;)
Tse.
Tsedek
Hello
/The fact that these lands were Judea and Samaria before the Arab conquest means that they are Jewish lands under occupation by Arabs. The majority of the Arabs living in these in Israel moved there from surrounding Arab lands after the Jews bought prosperity to the country by draining swamps and converting them to farmland and by making the desert bloom.../
This is false reading of history Tsedek.
Lets not discuss it in detail...at least for now
anyway..
I have een reading through the link you provided which talks about arab lies. I have met so many people who escaped from Hayfa, Jafa and Safad, Lydd, and many other places. My grandmother was actually one of them. So many tell different stories. What my Grandmother told me is that he had to escape with his family ( some went to Gaza and some went to Hebron) is the massacres they heard about. It is well documented, Tsedek, that the Hagana and Shtern terrorist organizations were spreading rumors and pushing people to leave. Hindred of people were killed during the Naqba and dont forget Deir Yassin massacre which surely added much to the fears of the arab citizens from "the jews"..
Most of what I read in that link is really stupid. It bring evidence from Arab newspapers and articles , forgetting at the same time that these same articles and newspapers talked about the Israeli Massacres that targeted civilians.
It is well documented in the early zionist writings that arabs have to be 'expelled'. I will bring you more solid evidence on this subject soon : did arans leave or were oushed to leave, and by whom. And : why did they leave.
Talking about generations wishing to come back to live in their homes : It is their rights.
Theoretically accepting the fact that these people left for some time, under what law did israel confiscate their homes and lands ? This is , too, against international laws ( check the UN site for documentation of rights of refugees )..
And one last question : Israel destroyed more than 300 arab villages.. right or wrong ??? answer me with yes or no..
WHere did the citizens go ? Werent they forced to leave ??
I am sure some peiople left for other reasons than being terrorized by the terror organizations lead my Shamir and Begen that time, but these were few.
I shal bring you with more trusted evidenve regarding this .
Excuse my ignorance Tsedek, but my backgrounds are not historical nor political. I have to read before I answer or even comment. But I still believe that the truth is not what that site told. The arabs were also using propaganda.. but the facts are the facts : we have few million refugees now, who cares for them ??
You have to know that these people live very hard life. You are enjoying your stay in Israel ONLY after removing these people out and causing them to live in camps for the last 50 years or so.
thanks for your replies
Osaid
Hello
/The fact that these lands were Judea and Samaria before the Arab conquest means that they are Jewish lands under occupation by Arabs. The majority of the Arabs living in these in Israel moved there from surrounding Arab lands after the Jews bought prosperity to the country by draining swamps and converting them to farmland and by making the desert bloom.../
This is false reading of history Tsedek.
Lets not discuss it in detail...at least for now
anyway..
I have een reading through the link you provided which talks about arab lies. I have met so many people who escaped from Hayfa, Jafa and Safad, Lydd, and many other places. My grandmother was actually one of them. So many tell different stories. What my Grandmother told me is that he had to escape with his family ( some went to Gaza and some went to Hebron) is the massacres they heard about. It is well documented, Tsedek, that the Hagana and Shtern terrorist organizations were spreading rumors and pushing people to leave. Hindred of people were killed during the Naqba and dont forget Deir Yassin massacre which surely added much to the fears of the arab citizens from "the jews"..
Most of what I read in that link is really stupid. It bring evidence from Arab newspapers and articles , forgetting at the same time that these same articles and newspapers talked about the Israeli Massacres that targeted civilians.
It is well documented in the early zionist writings that arabs have to be 'expelled'. I will bring you more solid evidence on this subject soon : did arans leave or were oushed to leave, and by whom. And : why did they leave.
Talking about generations wishing to come back to live in their homes : It is their rights.
Theoretically accepting the fact that these people left for some time, under what law did israel confiscate their homes and lands ? This is , too, against international laws ( check the UN site for documentation of rights of refugees )..
And one last question : Israel destroyed more than 300 arab villages.. right or wrong ??? answer me with yes or no..
WHere did the citizens go ? Werent they forced to leave ??
I am sure some peiople left for other reasons than being terrorized by the terror organizations lead my Shamir and Begen that time, but these were few.
I shal bring you with more trusted evidenve regarding this .
Excuse my ignorance Tsedek, but my backgrounds are not historical nor political. I have to read before I answer or even comment. But I still believe that the truth is not what that site told. The arabs were also using propaganda.. but the facts are the facts : we have few million refugees now, who cares for them ??
You have to know that these people live very hard life. You are enjoying your stay in Israel ONLY after removing these people out and causing them to live in camps for the last 50 years or so.
thanks for your replies
Osaid
Hello both,
what an interesting dialogue! I am from Germany, my husband is American. I learned the facts like Tsedek wrote it and referred to. So I am curious, what sources Osaid can represent.
I hope both of you are safe there. My thoughts are with you.
what an interesting dialogue! I am from Germany, my husband is American. I learned the facts like Tsedek wrote it and referred to. So I am curious, what sources Osaid can represent.
I hope both of you are safe there. My thoughts are with you.
# posted by 
: 7:45 p.m.
: 7:45 p.m.
Osaid, I just read your comments now (I don't know when you placed them, so if it took a long time, please excuse me). I will react to them -very soon- since I'm very interested in "going to the bottom of it" (for as far possible) - and I think we can, doing respectfully.
Peace,
Tse.
Peace,
Tse.
Hizbollah and Hamas have constructed core ideologies based upon this Islamic theology of Jew hatred, which one can glean readily from their foundational documents, and subsequent pronouncements, made ad nauseum. Hamas further demonstrates openly its adherence to a central motif of Jew-hatred in Muslim eschatology—Article 7 of the Hamas Charter concludes with a verbatim reiteration of the apocalyptic hadith alluded to earlier:
“The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985).
Apocalyptic Muslim Jew-hatred
So how will you make peace with those that want you dead?
Please answer I'm curious.
Leave a link in the comments any where on my blog Power and Control, I'll get back to you.
Osaid,
The Palestinians wanted to genocide the Jews before there was an Israel.
The Palestinian Role in the Holocaust
The guy behind it was Arafat's "uncle". It didn't start in '48. The Palestinians have been working for a Catastrophe for a long time. Unfortunately the Catastrophe did not only happen to the intended victim.
I make the same offer to you. Leave a link in my comments. I will respond.
Een reactie posten
“The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985).
Apocalyptic Muslim Jew-hatred
So how will you make peace with those that want you dead?
Please answer I'm curious.
Leave a link in the comments any where on my blog Power and Control, I'll get back to you.
Osaid,
The Palestinians wanted to genocide the Jews before there was an Israel.
The Palestinian Role in the Holocaust
The guy behind it was Arafat's "uncle". It didn't start in '48. The Palestinians have been working for a Catastrophe for a long time. Unfortunately the Catastrophe did not only happen to the intended victim.
I make the same offer to you. Leave a link in my comments. I will respond.
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